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You Don't Know Theme You Don't Know Theme Hot

You Don't Know Theme

Why do you keep saying "theme?" I do not think it means what you think it means.

Very often, the debate on what makes a good game boils down to two sides: theme vs. mechanisms. Is it more important that the sense of character and narrative be very strong? Or is it more important that a game make use of interesting rule interactions? Although the answer somehow falls in between, almost everyone I know would pick one over the other if they were forced. In fact, we often make these declarations even when someone isn't forcing us. Obviously it's a difficult choice, especially since most people don't know what they mean by theme.

Think about it. When you refer to the theme of a game, what do you talk about? Almost always, someone will refer to the world of the game. Games like Runebound and Descent take place in the world of Terrinoth. Arkham Horror exists within the works of H.P. Lovecraft. And we very often think of licenses. My personal favorite "thematic game" is Battlestar Galactica, which is of course based on the popular SyFy TV show. To most gamers, theme is created by a combination of artwork, flavor text, and mechanical flair. The whole point is to make you feel like you are "in the world" of the game.

Furthermore, when a game doesn't go to great lengths to tie things together, they will criticize the whole thing as having a disconnect. One game that comes to mind is the classic Eurogame, Ra. Ra takes place in ancient Egypt, but if you look at the rules of the game, they have little to do with anything. It's just an auction game with some nice graphics. Nothing about the game really "feels" like Egypt. It's an excellent game, but it's not what most people would call "thematic."

The only problem is, that isn't theme. When we're talking about the world of a game, and how well the mechanics reflect that world, we are simply talking about the "setting" of the game. It's where the game takes place. The characters, flavor text, and graphics all reflect a specific location or time. Obviously, the only games that DON'T have a setting are pure abstracts. Not every game ties into it's setting mechanically, but they usually at least have a setting.

I imagine that a lot of people will note that this is merely replacing one term with another, and that's not completely false. But I do it because I think that games can still be thematic. "Theme" means something very specific, and we need to divorce it from its common usage to really elevate the way we talk about board games.

When we use "theme" in art, we do not refer to the setting. Instead, "theme" refers to a specific idea that is being communicated by the work. When you are in a literature class, you will often be told to talk about the theme of a novel. For example, the theme of The Lord of the Rings is not Middle-earth. That's just the setting. The themes are those of friendship, sacrifice, hope in the face of despair, and the upheaval that comes with change. Theme is not something that is necessarily tangible. It's an attempt to move beyond the world we see to make a broader statement about our lives. Obviously, that is a much loftier goal. Most games don't even begin to deal with that. They evoke a setting, and then they are content to leave it right there. But there actually are some games that have made this leap.

An excellent example is Imperial. The setting of Imperial is Europe in the early 20th Century. The players play different investors who purchase stock in nations, and then clash them against each other. By waging war effectively, the players drive up the stock of the countries in which they purchased shares. What themes are at work here? There's the idea that the wealthy, not the government, controls a nation. There's the idea that a nation will sacrifice the lives of its citizens to eke out a minor economic edge. And there's the cynical concept that the lives of people and nations are merely a means to line the pockets of the wealthy. Imperial is not just a great game, it's one that seems to have a very specific message to share.

Another fascinating example is that of my personal favorite, Cosmic Encounter. The setting of Cosmic Encounter is fun, if unremarkable. Essentially, the players all represent different alien races, who build alliances of convenience to take over the cosmos. It's a highly volatile game with a lot of different variables. Because of that, it can often be wildly unpredictable. There's an interesting theme at work here: the universe is not a safe place. You can never be sure how one small action will impact everyone else. And there are numerous unexpected phenomena that will throw your best-laid plans into ruin. It can't be tamed, because it's bigger than any one player. Not only that, but there are shattering effects when different cultures collide with each other. How will the actions of one race affect the others? And if you think I'm just grasping at straws here to make my point, read what co-designer Peter Olotka wrote here. This was one of the stated intents of the design.

But why does this even matter? Aren't games all about having fun? Well, that's partially true. They were originally intended as an escape. But our other escapes elevate beyond "fun." Where would film-making be if every director merely tried to make something fun, and never made anything that challenged our minds and beliefs? Games are capable of much more than mere entertainment. They can make us think about our dogmas and ideas. They can swing for the fence, though they rarely do.

Does a game need to have a strong thematic core to be great? I don't think so. I would say that a lot of traditional "thematic" games like Fury of Dracula are more triumphs of setting, and that's fine. Then again, maybe I'm underselling the importance of theme in game design. This is still an idea that I'm coming to grips with, and I bet would could identify the themes present in just about every game we play. It's true that a lot of games bury their theme under layers of mechanics or flavor text, and that might be the sign of a design that is content to merely be "clever" or "cool." At any rate, board game criticism can cover a lot more than how fun or how intelligent a game is. It can talk about what our games are saying to us, and what they say about us as humans.

There was a lot of amazing discussion here at F:AT that directly informed a lot of what was written here. Thanks to all of those who contributed, and I'm sorry if I stole your words without meaning to.

This was also posted to my blog, The Rumpus Room. Check it out and leave some comments.

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Comments (55)
  • avatarGrudunza

    Good article, though it sounds like you lifted a lot of direct quotes from the Barnestorming discussion. Oh wait, I see now where you admitted to that. Heh, okay.

    Good point about films. Films can have really cool settings and just not be that good at all if they don't have something compelling about them that touches on something deeper or greater than the setting.

    Quote:
    I would say that a lot of traditional "thematic" games like Fury of Dracula are more triumphs of setting, and that's fine.

    And to some extent, I would say that Arkham Horror, much as I love it, is a little more of a triumph of its setting than something that really evokes a theme, though both AH and FOD demonstrate some good thematic feeling throughout (desperate fight against horror, sacrifice for the greater good, etc.).

  • avatarSan Il Defanso
    Quote:
    Good article, though it sounds like you lifted a lot of direct quotes from the Barnestorming discussion. Oh wait, I see now where you admitted to that. Heh, okay.

    I know, I know. I hope it doesn't piss anyone off. I wasn't able to really think of a better way to frame some of those points, so I just wrote it in the way that made sense to me.

  • avatarThirstyMan

    I think I disagree with this.

    Cosmic Encounter does not have theme because it is not telling a story. It is, however, a very immersive game. Its setting is the universe.

    BSG tells a story so we say it has lots of theme and it also happens to be immersive.

    Lost Cities has no theme (it does not tell a story) and (IMHO) is not immersive either. It does have a weak setting in some archeological dig or something.

    I think gamers use theme not as meaning a setting but as a synonym for 'telling a story'. Well, I do, so everyone else must be asshats.

  • avatarBlack Barney

    I hope Alistair Cookie never gets bounced from the front page. All that picture does is make me happy and reflective.

  • avatarJonJacob

    This is not completely directed at your article, which is fine and mostly agreeable, just that last little idea chucked in at the end...

    For the most part all I care about is fun and still a huge part of me (as I said in Barnestorming) thinks that's all games should be focusing on. That to ask games to reach the same glorious heights as the novel or symphony is just ridiculous. So as much as I like learning about us as humans and what games say to us, as you mention at the end of the article, I think boardgaming is one of the worst ways to gather that information and I highly doubt they will say anything that other mediums can't communicate better. Much better. That is why I don't think they should be taken too seriously and why I think going away from the fun is just so much superfulous intellectual masturbation. As if people are afraid to jump into something more high brow and want to find a way to get their philosohpy from a boardgame because it's easier to digest. Like reading the coles notes to all the great novels instead of actually reading them.

    We can teach kids about slavery and metaphysics!!

    So what? It's fine for teaching kids but at some point they better be ready to move past boardgaming. At this age I learn nothing meaningful from games in comparison to the other mediums I use.

    What kid would ever give a shit about Martin Heidegger's question of being if he's told he can get the same thing from Kevin Wilson's Decent? I just don't buy it. It reminds me of that stupid Jimmy Page quote where he says that kids don't need to listen to Robert Johnson and Lightning Hopkins because they can get all that from Led Zepplin. Bullshit.

    With theme and setting. I get it, I agree, and I think it can go a long way to making games better if all designers were aware of it too. Nice read, thanks for taking the time to get it done.

  • Kailes

    Hello all,

    long time lurker here :)

    Very nice article. It reminded me of several articles by Soren Johnsen, Lead Designer of Civilization IV. The first two are quite strongly related to San Il Defanso's article. Though Soren called setting theme and theme meaning. For the most part he writes about what happens if theme and meaning don't match up and what advantages you gain by uniting theme and meaning.
    Theme is not Meaning I
    Theme is not Meaning II

    IMO when talking about games we should pay more attention to a game's meaning, because it is essentially what the game is all about and that is probably the most important aspect in understanding a game's appeal. And probably the most difficult to verbalize, too, because it requires a solid understanding and experience with the game and a high level of abstraction. But that makes it much more valuable than talking about its setting and mechanics and how the two relate.

  • avatarSan Il Defanso

    JonJacob, I certainly wouldn't propose that games would serve as a replacement for discussing ideas found in other greater works. But there's no reason they can't compliment them. And like you say, at the very least an idea of theme in game design would go a long way towards creating better games.

  • avatarMattDP
    Quote:
    Theme is not Meaning I
    Theme is not Meaning II

    These are fantastic. Thanks so much for sharing. And welcome to the discussion.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    What the hell, is San il Defanso Seth Hiatt in disguise? You robber! ;-)

    I'm just kidding, this is very much _our_ discussion, not any one person or persons and I'm very glad to see it continue because I think there's a lot here worth talking about. This is the kind of discussion that moves thinking and talking about games forward.

    Over the weekend, I was thinking about "theme" and how the ad hoc, hobby definition of it is actually MORE applicable to games like Ra than it is to Arkham Horror. That's with the assumption that "theme" is a system of visual signification and representation overlaid on essentially themeless mechanics. Call it the "Desktop Theme" theory, I kind of alluded to it last week but I think it holds up to inspection.

    It makes sense to call an abstract game like Acquire or E&T "thematic" if we regard theme as this purely visual concept where a particular "code" ties everything together to impart a sense of coontextual meta-narrative, even if only at the very highest level- "Ancient Egypt", "Medieval castle building",
    "renaissance trading"...these can be themes.

    But if we take a more literary interpretation of "theme" as a communicated idea or meaning, something that I think some of us are moving or have moved toward, then the number of games that could be said to be "thematic" in that sense is dramatically smaller than the number of games listed under the "Thematic Games" classification at BGG.

    Imperial definitely has a theme in this regard, that's a great observation. Labyrinth: War on Terror, Terrorbull's War on Terror, Karnaxis, Civilization (Tresham) do too. Catan has a theme of community and collective resource sharing. History of the World is about the ebb and flow of human cultures. Phil Eklund's games are very specific in their themes. BSG is definitely about more than it appears based on its sci-fi conceit.

    But do Descent, Twillight Imperium, Last Night on Earth, and Fury of Drcula really have themes by this definition at all? I would say most definitely not. These are games that as San puts it are more triumphs of _setting_.

  • avatarclockwirk

    My question is how to refer to a game whose mechanisms don't make sense within the setting. Your discussion of RA (a game I love) is a good example of this. According to you, RA is thematic in the sense that the game effectively deals with the "themes" of auctions, tension, risk-taking, etc.., but the mechanisms don't mesh with the setting. I considered describing RA as having a lack of "thematic integration", but with your definition, that's not strictly the case. The mechanisms do convey the themes, just not the setting.
    So, do we say "setting integration"? Maybe "immersion" is the correct term, because a unconnected mechanism can pull you out of the narrative of a game. Then again, a game can fail to be immersive without a mechanism that is contrary to the setting, so...who knows?

  • avatarJonJacob

    Setting is important in gaming. So much so that the players, if the setting is detailed and rich, can take theme from it. A trimuph of setting is nothing to scoff at and I get the feeling that there is some of this attitude mixed in with these other idea's. Just because theme and setting are not the same doens't mean they don't compliment one another. The setting in TI:3 could be changed to be about global conquest or a different sci-fi universe, a fantasy one, a real world one... whatever you like to some degree but the theme of players fighting over control of space (not outer space just space as a vague term) remains. The setting helps us relate to it and it does a bang up job on that.

    The theme is diplomacy as well as conflict and those themes are represented very well. We've had many very emotional and pissy games of it that are all the proof I need. The setting is so immersive and huge with such care taken in back story that it gets difficult to see the theme behind that setting. Doesn't mean it's not there. Excessive componenets and chorme-y rules can obfuscate the theme but that doesn't mean it's been removed.

    Abstract games convey pure theme as many Go players will tell you. There's a ton of interesting ways to interpret what happens on the board and plenty of poetic writings on such things. It's easy to see them too because there is no setting to confuse you. I think that with games that have lower production values you're more tempted to look for theme because the setting can be distracting.

    But that is the exact same reason so many player like a strong setting because it couches all that theme inside (if it's done right) and can be extrapolated to apply to other things. Is there any reason that the diplomacy and conflcit in TI:3 could not be applied to how the UN works? Not really and that is the power of an entirely fictional world is that the freedom to apply is not only there.. it's neccessary. Whereas a game like Labyrinth encourages you to ONLY think about it's one particular conflict AND to be confused by the authors own opinions which are hidden in the game itself.

    In my opinion the setting actually hurts the theme in these cases.

    With TI:3 that is not a concern. There are no opinions about real world conflicts hidden in there. Which means your more free to take from it what you will without being confused by the authors opinions on the subject.

  • avatarInfinityMax

    This was a great article, but I disagree on some of the finer points. I understand your point, but I think you've used too narrow a definition to 'theme'. When applied to fiction or film, of course, your definition is perfect, but consider the word as used in theme park or theme restaurant. In these cases, the theme actually means setting.

    Knott's Berry Farm, for example, is an excellent example of setting as theme. Most of the park is a fake Old West town, complete with snake-oil salesmen and impromptu gunfights. We're not supposed to be exploring concepts of free will, discovering the deeper meaning of political power, or any other intellectual pursuit. The theme in question allows us to feel the setting.

    The same applies to a theme restaurant like the Rainforest Cafe. As you sit in your booth waiting for your overpriced fried food, birds cry in the bushes and thunderstorms roll through the restaurant. The theme in this sense refers to the setting.

    Games are an interesting form of entertainment, in that they interactive. A theme park is interactive, but you can't use a theme park to explore greed or sacrifice. You can do that in a game. That creates a situation where theme can actually be applied using multiple definitions. A game can have 'theme' in the sense that it explores or expresses emotional or moral quandaries, and it can have 'theme' in the sense that it allows you to explore a setting.

    I know we're just arguing semantics here, but I think semantics was actually the point of the article.

  • avatarwice

    FFS, you sound like a bunch of pretentious philosophy students who try to score some points with their professor by redefining words. What you are talking about is "message", not "theme", so there's no reason to re-name "theme" as "setting".

    Thematic games are those, that start with a theme and apply mechanics that help transmitting it. Abstract games start with a few mechanics, and call it a day. Themed abstracts (i.e. most Euros) start with a bit more mechanics, and apply a theme on them, so it helps players to remember the rules (and possibly make the game a bit more marketable). That's all, folks. This is completely separate from the question whether a game has a message and/or evokes some feelings in the players (other than the desire to win or desperate boredom).

  • avatarscissors  - re:

    Coles notes! Brilliant!

    It reminds me of National Lampoon magazine's parody of Coles notes in the 1980s.

    Moby Dick: Man gets leg bit off by whale. Man gets mad.

    Or,

    Guy kills old woman, feels bad about it, turns self in.

    Or something like that.

    I guess I'm just really really shallow :) and don't expect games to go as deep as some might like them to go.

    For the record I am not the right audience for stuff like Phil Eklund's games or maybe even Labyrinth: the war on terror - I'd rather read about it in Science or some political magazine or book. The Turnbull game is something else, because of the black humour.

  • avatarInfinityMax

    what a weird coincidence, Wice. Right after you said we sound like pretentious brown-nosing philosophy students, I was thinking you sound like an asshole.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    This is almost as sad as the "Comic Sans" debacle.

  • avatarscissors

    I don't think he sounds like an asshole at all. Wice is good at 'grounding' this shit, as is JonJacob. Thank you for that.

    How many of us are buying a new 115 dollar untested limited game set in one of the nerdiest of made-up universes ever conceived 'cos of the 'cool' minitaures ? To do what exactly?

  • avatarJonJacob  - re:

    I want the mini's.

    The 3D terrain.

    And the awesome cloth board that apparently won't wrinkle.

    But I can see why it's fun to pontificate on games in such a high falutin' manner. Even if I don't totally agree with it. Games can be defined as many different things. For some it's a game to write about game design in this kind of way. I get that too.

    InfinityMax wrote:
    we sound like pretentious brown-nosing philosophy students, I was thinking you sound like an asshole.

    Maybe I'm a pretentious brown nosing asshole. Best of both worlds eh?

    Scissors, that's a great version of Crime and Punishment. I think Imma go burn my copy now. Bring on the Dostoyevsky game!

  • avatarscissors

    I'd play that! With a pitcher of vodka.

  • avatarmikecl

    Great article! And food for thought.
    What makes a game thematic to me is its ability to make you feel like you as a player are part of the game created world.

    Like a good book or movie, a thematic game lets you take on a role -- like a pirate in Merchants and Marauders. It helps to have a strong setting, but it's not crucial. The story's the thing. Chad Jensen's Dominant Species is played with cones and cubes on nondescript color tiles. But the game is so well designed your cubes feel like endangered species in a desperate struggle for survival and all the game play informs that so well you forget they're cubes and cones completely. I think in the end for me (without dissecting the semantics of words)a thematic game provides the outline of a story you get to write by performing a role in it. In some games like Android you are literally writing your own story.

    For me theme in a game is essential because I play games for the escapism. I'm a big fan of Ameritrash games because they do theme best. They use dice because in life you can't control everything. They're full of conflict, because you can't have a story without it and they're competitive not cooperative because life is messy and sometimes you just have to stand up and be counted. HiveGod put it best when he said:

    What sort of man plays Ameritrash?
    Bold. Resolute. 'Bulgy'. He doesn't plow fields, he razes 'em. Uses the tombstones of your ancestors as railgun ammo and the bones of your children as currency to build a flying space fortress. He'd slit his own jugular if it meant fewer victory points for you. Yeah. That's your man in a nutshell.
    -HiveGod

    Game anyone?

  • avatarscissors

    That's a great HiveGod quote.

    This I really like:

    "I think in the end for me (without dissecting the semantics of words)a thematic game provides the outline of a story you get to write by performing a role in it."

  • avatarSan Il Defanso

    Look, I've been through plenty of literature classes, as I'm sure many of you have. I'm going with a really literary definition for "theme," because that's how every other medium uses it. If we want to treat criticism of board games at all like film or literary criticism, than we need to use some of the same vocabulary. Heck, people talk about themes in video games all the time. This language already has existed in just about every other critical field.

    A lot of gamers are from a computing background, where "theme" refers to something totally different. When we talk about a theme in the world of electronics, we're just talking about how the art looks, really. It's just a "skin" as they say.

    I didn't make this clear enough in the article, but I think that games can be great without a great theme. I genuinely love Fury of Dracula, but it doesn't have a lot of thematic meat. Similarly, Ra has such a good mechanical base that it's afterthought setting isn't a problem for me. But sometimes all three come together, and when they do, it can be really special.

    And while I understand that some people really don't care to think about games beyond "is this fun?", I don't really understand why other people picking apart games would bother you. Most games HAVEN'T really risen to a thematic level, and I probably gave too much wiggle room there. But the point is, a lot of games HAVE risen to the challenge, and it's something to think about.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    One of the most important things that people who can write about games should do is to discuss games using the critical vocabularies established in analyzing other mediums.

    Writing about "is this game fun, yes or no" gets really, really old when you've been thinking about, writing about, and critically appraising games for more than, say, a year.

    If games writing _should_ be just about whether a game is fun or not, we ought to shut this place down because that's a pretty boring conversation to have.

    Also, I think the whole argument that games make you "feel" like you're in a particular setting or "feel" like you're actually doing the depicted action is kind of bunk. Once you roll dice, the disconnect between player, setting, and real life becoes extremely apparent.

    There are very THEMATIC games that can simulate certain decision making processes and even certain stressors- I'm thinking Rommel in the Desert in particular, with the way it models the difficulty of supply in the North African campaign- but do you really "feel" like you're doing those things, or do you "feel" simply what's at face value, that you're playing a game that simulates those things?

  • avatarscissors

    Ok, I had a bit written that I lopped off where I specified, and I should have left it in, that it's great that some games have risen to the challenge. Really. I'm glad that deeper games like Imperial exist and I think that was a great example in your article - I have the game and have never played it and 'knew' it had these themes... so I will want to play it more now.

    On the other hand, the themes mentioned - as much as they might stir your imagination in game format, are still 'cardboard cut-outs' comparitively-speaking. They might get you thinking about these things more deeply, but I still think its fairly shallow - those themes are outlined most of the time with a pretty thick brush (I'm not talking about the intricacies of the game itself here, just the themes}. It's the same thing Labyrinth was criticised for, for example, lumping terrorists into one group, etc. etc. making simplifications which are absolutely neccessary. But they ARE simplifications.


    'Course, I don't mind being proven wrong: if someone learned about German politics and elections from Die Macher or about the Cold War from Twilight Struggle, great. I tend to think that it's the other way around: people who are already interested in those periods want to see it translated into game form to relive them on some level. To pretend THEY changed history and were in the driver's seat rather than bystanders... and kept the world from going to Defcon 5.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    The simplifications you're talking about Scissors are also _fundamental_ characteristics of what a game design is. All game designs are, without exception, ABSTRACTIONS. Yes, all games are abstract. Every single one. It's a question of degree.

    I do agree with you that generally, it's a facile kind of depth. It gets back to what I was saying about the rather thin "make believe" layer of gameplay.

  • avatarscissors

    The thin "make believe" layer of gameplay.... somehow I completely missed that.

    Barnes, now that I think about it, one of the intriguing things about opening any new game and learning the rules and playing for the first time has to be uncovering where and what has been simplified, along what lines of reasoning. Ok, I know it's obvious, but until now I've always jumped in and started playing but it must be different to set out from the outset testing a game's logic and strengths and weaknesses.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    San: Using "theme" in the literary sense is likely the best way to use it, I think. So, I agree with that.

    Here's the textbook definition, from Wiki:
    "A theme is a broad idea, message, or moral of a story. The message may be about life, society, or human nature. Themes often explore timeless and universal ideas and are almost always implied rather than stated explicitly. Along with plot, character, setting, and style, theme is considered one of the fundamental components of fiction.

    Another approach to literature stresses that idea, message, and moral are abstractions and that fiction makes the idea concrete through action. In this view many themes exist in any given story but that what gives a story unity is one action of the human condition that is rendered through the various actions of the characters in the story."
    (emphasis mine)

    So, by that definition, the actions of the player character define the theme. As such, a game that provides the opportunity for a player to make choices that explore and develop the overall theme of a game are the ones that should be defined as "thematic", no?

  • avatarInfinityMax  - re:
    San Il Defanso wrote:
    Look, I've been through plenty of literature classes, as I'm sure many of you have. I'm going with a really literary definition for "theme," because that's how every other medium uses it. If we want to treat criticism of board games at all like film or literary criticism, than we need to use some of the same vocabulary. Heck, people talk about themes in video games all the time. This language already has existed in just about every other critical field.

    Good point, San. I think my point in regards to 'theme' is that board games are simultaneously more and less than fiction, and thus multiple definitions of 'theme' can be applied to them. In the sense of exploring bigger ideas, games can be thematic, though few are, but in the sense of an interactive 'themed' experience, games can do that well, and in that sense, 'theme' does mean 'setting.'

    Quote:
    And while I understand that some people really don't care to think about games beyond "is this fun?", I don't really understand why other people picking apart games would bother you.

    And that would be why I thought Wice sounded like an asshole. I don't see the point in coming in and calling everyone pretentious for debating semantics after an article that debates semantics. If you're not interested, keep walking. I found it especially interesting that after he sneered at us for debating semantics, he put his foot down and debated semantics.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    Exactly. One of the cool things about Gears of War is seeing what Corey felt was worth abstracting out of the video game and what wasn't and how those things translated into tabletop mechanics and gameplay ideas. Detailed narrative and character development- out. Cover system and cooperatiion- in.

  • avatarSan Il Defanso

    Pete, I'll do you one better and say that the best thematic board games (which probably have not been designed yet) will DEPEND on the players actions to bring forth the themes of the whole thing.

  • avatarwice

    I'm not against talking about message, immersion or emotiveness in boardgames. I think it's a very interesting topic. I just don't like that (when it came to boardgames) up until now everybody used the word "theme" as interchangeable with "setting", and then, suddenly, everyone is happy with accepting that it means something completely different than what they meant by it previously. But if we agree that from now on "theme" means this rather than that, that's fine.

  • avatarmikecl  - re:
    Michael Barnes wrote:
    Also, I think the whole argument that games make you "feel" like you're in a particular setting or "feel" like you're actually doing the depicted action is kind of bunk. [

    Well maybe it is for you. But I BUY games for exactly that. I've seen geeks at conventions playing Plunder dressed as pirates LOL. And my last opponent playing A Few Acres of Snow insisted on period fife and drum music. Asshole drummed and fifed himself right into Quebec City too.

    Aren't we in some small measure reliving childhood S&F playing TWI3 or playing out Star Trek senarios in Fleet Captains?

    Yes you can peel back the Wizard of Oz curtain and reveal the clanking, whirring cogs and wheels within, but where's the fun in that?

    I also read fiction for the escapism. "Feelings" as you so disdainfully finger quote it, are part of life. Most of us have them.

  • avatarubarose

    I totally support creating a critical vocabulary, but if you are going to use the word 'theme' in a narrow sense, you are going to have to make that clear everytime you use the word. Theme has at least a dozen different definitions, and I doubt the literary definition will gain traction with regards to boardgame. I think 'theme' as it is used for other forms of entertainment is how most people use it for boardgames, which is a mash up of setting, subject matter and visual elements (decorations, costumes). You can have party themes, theme parks. People even use theme this way when taking about movies and books which further confuses the issue - Halloween themed story time at the bookstore, Western themed movie marathon. And on top of all that "Thematic Games" is code for Ameritrash on BGG.

  • avatarSagrilarus

    I'm having trouble keeping up with the changing definitions as well.

    My first breakout for a title is mechanics/thematics. If you want to break down the latter half of that into smaller pieces it's fine, but I think you're going to leave 95% of your audience behind unless you provide a lot of supporting information to give it reference.

    S.

  • avatarShellhead  - re:
    Michael Barnes wrote:
    The simplifications you're talking about Scissors are also _fundamental_ characteristics of what a game design is. All game designs are, without exception, ABSTRACTIONS. Yes, all games are abstract. Every single one. It's a question of degree.

    I do agree with you that generally, it's a facile kind of depth. It gets back to what I was saying about the rather thin "make believe" layer of gameplay.

    And yet there is an obvious difference in the experience of playing Arkham Horror and Elder Sign that goes beyond setting. Call it theme, or narrative, or whatever, but one game feels like a story while the other is just rolling dice.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    It strikes me that first and foremost, we don't have a clear definition of where theme, setting, immersion, narrative, meaning, and atmosphere actually _occur_ in a game. We've got people that say that it's all meta, all internalized by the players. Some say it's from an simulationist interface between rules and subject matter. Others think it's flavor text and art. And then there's the conceptual versus executive argument.

    It could be that we can't really arrive at a clear definition until we understand at what points that this is happening. It's definitely something that differs from game to game, I think, so perhaps certain classifications are in order that better describe how it all works.

    I've seen geeks at conventions playing Plunder dressed as pirates LOL.

    The husband and wife that designed that game used to come into my store to demo it dressed in full pirate garb.

    I'm not that kind of gamer.

  • avatarBlack Barney

    I like how Alistair Cookie's look is now basically, "what the heck is this page about?"

    ...and of course, "and where are the cookies? Me want cookies."


    /likes InfinityMax's comments the best

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    And yet there is an obvious difference in the experience of playing Arkham Horror and Elder Sign that goes beyond setting. Call it theme, or narrative, or whatever, but one game feels like a story while the other is just rolling dice.

    Exactly- because Elder Sign is an abstraction of an abstraction. I believe it was Shellie that said it- the subject matter of the game is actually the board game Arkham Horror.

  • avatarmads b.

    I've been wanting to write an article about how games tell stories for a long time now. The discussion here and in the Barnestormning-thread finally made me finish it and now we're all just eagerly waiting for it to be approved. Or, I am at least.

  • avatarscissors

    No, It's C is for Cookie that's good enough for me!

  • avatarwice  - re:
    Michael Barnes wrote:
    Also, I think the whole argument that games make you "feel" like you're in a particular setting or "feel" like you're actually doing the depicted action is kind of bunk. Once you roll dice, the disconnect between player, setting, and real life becoes extremely apparent.

    Of course, an action in a boardgame doesn't feel like you are actually doing that thing. But the best games can really feel like you are part of the story and make you feel like you are your character. E.g. BSG perfectly creates the feeling of paranoia, and I think Fury of Dracula is very thematic, even in this new, fancy sense: at least for me playing Dracula felt really like I was being chased, and I'm sure the hunter players had a similar (opposite) experience.

  • avatarmikecl  - re:
    Michael Barnes wrote:
    The husband and wife that designed that game used to come into my store to demo it dressed in full pirate garb.

    I'm not that kind of gamer.

    Fair enough Michael. Neither am I, but when you're playing Fury of Dracula which I see is one of your favorite games, don't you enjoy playing the monster because well it IS Dracula or scurry before him while your Vampire Hunter plots his demise.

    In Magic Realm you set forth on a grand and deadly adventure where you're hiring local natives or riding horses in a magical land -- a land where with the right spell you can fly over hex tiles or Melt Into Mist. You slay Dragons and dance with Demons.

    I mean whatever definition you want to give theme, those of us who love it, recognize it by its ability to absorb us. Yes all games at heart are abstract, but it's their ability to make us forget that, that makes them compelling. One of my first games after a long hiatus in gaming was Reiner Knizia's Lost Cities. This was pre-Geek for me and I thought it would be an archaeological expedition. Turned out to be a push your luck card laying exercise. I haven't played a Knizia game yet that I've liked because I can see all the gears and cogs ponderously clanking away sending up blue clouds of greasy smoke.

    When I buy a game I want to see that shit covered up!!

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    Personally, I think that this whole discussion, while interesting, ultimately changes nothing.

    Most people will use theme as an all-encompassing terminology that covers setting, story, main idea, and everything. And I'm OK with that. As a guy who writes about games, spending a paragraph talking about the theme of a game, then another on the setting, and then another on the mood....just seems like a whole load of horseshit that doesn't really facilitate readability by any but the most academic.

    Nothing wrong with using "theme" as an all-purpose drop box, IMO. People understand what it means immediately, and changing the lexicon in the boardgame industry is a pretty hefty undertaking. Ultimately, it really doesn't do a whole hell of a lot, either.

  • avatarShellhead  - re:
    Michael Barnes wrote:
    It strikes me that first and foremost, we don't have a clear definition of where theme, setting, immersion, narrative, meaning, and atmosphere actually _occur_ in a game. We've got people that say that it's all meta, all internalized by the players. Some say it's from an simulationist interface between rules and subject matter. Others think it's flavor text and art. And then there's the conceptual versus executive argument.

    It could be that we can't really arrive at a clear definition until we understand at what points that this is happening. It's definitely something that differs from game to game, I think, so perhaps certain classifications are in order that better describe how it all works.

    Part of the challenge is that some groups play games differently than others. For example, a creative and talkative group of players might enhance the play of an otherwise dry euro by commenting on the gameplay in terms of what it could represent. Another group could greatly diminish a game of Arkham Horror just by silently reading cards instead of out loud, turning the pseudo-narrative into mere dice rolls.

  • avatarubarose  - re:
    Michael Barnes wrote:
    It strikes me that first and foremost, we don't have a clear definition of where theme, setting, immersion, narrative, meaning, and atmosphere actually _occur_ in a game. We've got people that say that it's all meta, all internalized by the players. Some say it's from an simulationist interface between rules and subject matter. Others think it's flavor text and art. And then there's the conceptual versus executive argument.

    It could be that we can't really arrive at a clear definition until we understand at what points that this is happening. It's definitely something that differs from game to game, I think, so perhaps certain classifications are in order that better describe how it all works.

    That's because the best games are synergistic, unified objects. It happens when theme, setting, immersion, narrative, meaning, atmosphere, interface, flavor text, art and rules all come together in just the right way for that particular game.

  • avatarNotahandle

    Good article. And, mads? Looking forward to see what yours adds.

    The mention of Ra above made me think of rethemes and whether that says anything useful about the use of the terms we're discussing. Ra was rethemed as Rathulhu. Clearly 'Egypt' or 'Arkham' are entirely grafted on, nothing else about the game evokes them. But both are divine settings. Perhaps settings can be interchangeable, but only up to a certain degree. So pick your favourite racing game, could it changed into a car race, a bike race, a boat race, a horse race? How easily? Am I just harking back to the earlier 'all games are abstracts' comment?

  • avatarwice

    Ra was also (officially) rethemed as Razzia: a Maffia setting that is anything but divine. Ra is simply a set collection/auction game. It's a themed abstract, meaning that it's about the mechanics, nothing else.

    But yeah, even in thematic games you can easily change the setting for something generally similar. See Rex, the current Dune re-release (not to mention that the mechanics of Dune was originally designed with another completely different (not sci-fi) setting in mind, and it was changed to Dune when they got the licence).

  • avatarldsdbomber

    There was a nice podcast, maybe by Boardgamestogo, or boardgame babylon, I think it might have been Mark Johnson, but maybe I'm wrong, anyway it was all about theme not just being the stuff to do with story and immersion and narrative, but also about tying together mechanics so they make intuitive sense. Planting something in a field and it growing into more shit later is thematic in that what happens more or less follows what you would expect in reality, its easier to remember the mechanic than if you said put a yellow cube in this box and in 3 turns there are 3 yellow cubes. Maybe a bad example, but I think there's a lot of ground in the argument that if the actions and mechanics in a game make some kind of sense, in a way that means you intuitively know how they work, or can easily remember them by thinking how it would work in reality, then there's some kind of thematic angle there. Thats why the idea that digging and exploring a temple longer and more carefully uncovers more valuable treasures in Tikal feels like a thematic "win" in a way that the expedition points in the (abomination that is) Lost Cities example fails.

    I wish I could remember that podcast, I think the guys there described it as theme as metaphor and theme as narrative as the two different aspects of what people mean by theme. It was a good listen....

  • avatartcho-tcho  - re:

    The problem with this (the OP's) definition of theme is that it's nothing but a fancy description of the game's mechanics. You just have to sound abstract (or pompous) enough: Ra may be about "timeliness" if you want it to.

    Michael Barnes wrote:
    Also, I think the whole argument that games make you "feel" like you're in a particular setting or "feel" like you're actually doing the depicted action is kind of bunk. Once you roll dice, the disconnect between player, setting, and real life becoes extremely apparent.

    I don't know if you're referring to our previous discussion; I'll reply as if you were.

    That's a very narrow definition of feeling: you don't have to feel you're personally doing the action to experience some connection to the game. Call it empathy, if you want. I suppose that otherwise we would all be playing sudoku instead. If you leave all feelings out, Knizia's LotR is definitely not about sacrifice or companionship.

    All games are abstractions, no doubt. But as I said some days ago, I think this is a very accurate rule of thumb: the greater the mental effort one has to make in order to evoke a theme/setting/whatever, the more abstract it will *feel*. So it's not only the players, and not only the game, but the interaction between the two.

  • avatarmjl1783
    Quote:
    That is why I don't think they should be taken too seriously and why I think going away from the fun is just so much superfulous intellectual masturbation. As if people are afraid to jump into something more high brow and want to find a way to get their philosophy from a boardame because it's easier to digest. Like reading the coles notes to all the great novels instead of actually reading them.

    Or maybe it's just that the rest of us aren't nearly as impressed with ourselves for having read Kierkegaard as you obviously are.

  • avatarJonJacob  - re:
    mjl1783 wrote:

    Or maybe it's just that the rest of us aren't nearly as impressed with ourselves for having read Kierkegaard as you obviously are.

    1st, never read Kierkegaard, probably never will. But if I wanted philosophy I'd go to a philosopher instead of a game designer.

    2nd, Go fuck yourself.

  • avatarNotahandle

    wice: Obviously I agree. The point I was trying to make is that the degree to which a setting is grafted on would also be useful as part of this new gaming vocabulary because it's something that affects theme.

  • avatarlewpuls

    To me, a game has a theme only if the theme affects how the game is designed and played. If it is only a gloss on top of the game (as in Ra) that doesn't affect how the game is designed and played, then it's an "atmosphere".

    I'm not sure where setting fits in this definition. A setting that provides a context for playing a game is closer to theme, a setting that only provides color is closer to an atmosphere.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    http://superflycircus.blogspot.com/2011/04/elements-that-transform-good- designs.html

    The first sentence could've been changed to "atmosphere" and I think it really would've fit better in a sense.

    The atmosphere of Space Hulk, though, is different than its setting and theme:

    Atmosphere: Tense, Claustrophobic
    Setting: A derelict spaceship loaded with "bug eggs", in a universe where various factions strive to completely wipe humanity from existence.
    Theme: Squad-Level Shooter.

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