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melee

I’ve done the full circuit in terms of hobby gaming. In addition to all the usual suspects, I’ve also dipped my toes into LARP and, at one point, spent some time involved with living history and battle re-enactment. If you think you’ve seen more oddballs than you can stomach at gaming nights across the country, they’re nothing compared with some of the nutters that living history attracts. Not to mention the prospect of camping with them, medieval style and no mod cons, for a weekend or longer.

But one thing I did totally get out of re-enactment was learning how to fight with melee weapons, properly. None of the rubber LARP rubbish where you furiously try and rain short blows down on a fake orc with a wobbly sword as many times as you can before he gets a shield up, but serious, physical combat with realistic heavy steel weapons (blunt, of course) and no-holds barred effort, resulting in blows that’ll send chunks flying out of your wooden shield while you cower behind it. It teaches you an awful lot about how people actually would have fought with these sorts of weapons. And it’s nothing like you imagine it to be.

For starters it’s utterly exhausting. Even with a relatively light weapon and no armour you can only keep it up for perhaps ten minutes, and that’s if you’re physically fit. Add a suit of chain mail and a decent sized sword and you can halve that, or less. The scenes you’re used to seeing of combat in films and books are ridiculously prolonged, and the protagonists rarely seem out of breath: in reality one of the combatants would have died of exertion long before being skewered on a blade. And for another thing the only time melee fighting looks anything like it does in the movies is when all the people fighting have swords. Swords are neat things that can stab and slice, chop and parry, swing and feint. Most other weapons have only one mode of operation: axes chop, spears stab and maces swipe. That’s all they do. They do them very effectively, and they’re just as good for killing people as a sword is, just a lot less interesting to watch.

Another thing that came as a shock was the discovery that this stuff is in no way choreographed. Whenever I'd watched displays in the past I had always assumed the fight scenes were pre-rehearsed to a large extent as I couldn't imagine there would be any other safe way to do it. The answer is that you're taught to fight safely: first of all with a blunt dagger, a weapon too small to do serious damage (unless you poke someone in the eye, which I almost did when I was learning). Blows aimed at the head are not allowed, and you're taught to "pull" the blow - to watch if it's about to hit flesh and to take all the force out of it in the moment before it connects. It's not that hard once you've practised it for a while, although mistakes are still common. Bumps and bruises are par for the course, and the occasional more serious injury does happen. I once caught a blow across the fingers so hard that the compression split the skin on one finger from top to bottom. And when that had healed, I went out and got some chain-mail gloves, and carried on. 

But the most surprising thing I learned about it is how much of hand-to-hand fighting is about distance. Yes, strength, speed, skill, stamina and all the things that gaming has taught you are important about fighting play a vital part, but whenever the fight involves protagonists with weapons of different sizes, the actual form of the battle is totally dictated by length and reach. It’s obvious when you think about it. Imagine a man with a sword fighting a man with a spear. As the two square off, to start with the swordsman simply has no chance at all to land a blow on the spearman. His weapon is too short: as they close, the spear point will be placed between them, and the spear wielder will do his very best to make sure it stays that way. As long as the distance between them remains the length of a spear shaft, the sword blade physically cannot reach the spearman to harm him. However, if the swordsman can find a way past the point, suddenly the roles are reversed: the spearman cannot harm the sword-weilder because the sharp end of his weapon is somewhere past his opponents’ back. He’s now totally at the mercy of the sword unless he can find a way to retreat and re-impose that advantage of distance.

Distance can be psychological as well as physical, and it’s no less effective. As a gamer, you might be a bit worried about facing down someone with a two-handed axe because it has a big damage dice, but that’s nothing compared with the worry you feel when you’re faced with the prospect of getting to grips with a six-foot beaded lunatic swinging a ten-pound axe that’s bigger than you are for all he’s worth. And that’s even when you’re armed with the knowledge that the axe is blunt, it’s all for show and he’s not really trying to kill you. Even then, it’s a tough ask to make your legs move in the right direction. In theory, it’s easy to kill someone with a war axe: it’s an unwieldy, cumbersome weapon and the time you have between blows when he’s vulnerable are easily enough for a skilled warrior to dart in a drive a wedge of steel through his middle, but psychologically, forcing yourself to get that close to something that terrifying is a whole different ball game.

So whenever two fighters with weapons of different lengths meet, distance totally dictates the battle. And what determines the winner nearly all of the time is whether the fighter with the shorter weapon can find a way to close the distance before the longer weapon wounds him. It’s worst for people with really short weapons such as daggers and hand axes fighting against weapons that are longer, but still one-handed like a sword: even if they make it past the point, the defender still has a shield to protect themselves with whilst they back off.

Speaking of which, another point that’s often done down in games is the essentially of shields. A shield is the ultimate blocking device - you maneuver it to where you need it to be, and a well-sized shield is light enough to be mobile whilst large enough to require a minimum of skill to block with effectively. Although enormous shields can be useful too: I once met a re-enactor who made his own gigantic shields to cower under and he was terribly difficult to beat, as he would just stand behind his shield and wait for an opening in your defences before striking. Games make nowhere near enough of shields: the paltry +1 to armour class they gave you in D&D was so idiotic that it looked stupid even before I knew from practical experience just how stupid it was.

The point of this lengthy rant is not simply one of interest at the fact that melee combat turned out to work rather differently to the way I’d always imagined from fiction and from games, but to illustrate how totally and utterly wrong most games that attempt to describe such violence get it. And when I say “most” I may well mean “all”: I, personally, have never come across a game system that comes close. Even games that have involved, convoluted, non-random, narrative systems such as that presented by Magic Realm fall woefully short of the mark.

Do we care? Especially given that we’ve devoted a fair number of column inches lately to discussing how it’s not actually particularly important (or even possible) for games to provide even a vague approximation of reality. Not really. The knowledge that everything is wrong rarely intrudes into my enjoyment of the occasional game of tactical sword-age warfare. Rather I’m more thinking about it as a fertile area of possibly unexplored design space. After all, if someone can write an interesting and engaging game about the split-second intricacies of gunfighting such as Gunslinger, why not one along the same lines involving melee combat? Why not throw in a healthy dose of fantasy as well? I doubt there are many people here who would disagree that a Gunslinger like game would be instantly improved by the additions of orcs and dragons.

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Comments (27)
  • avatarldsdbomber  - great article

    It's strange that the things you are touching on echo something that hit me this last week as I've been doing a lot of WW2 reading, and checking out web articles, and youtube, mainly tanks, but also the weapons. I saw a video of a single MG42 being fired. Now in a game, of course thats a good gun, "good dice" or whatever the system uses, but I got to thinking FUCK, just think about a SINGLE MG42 team firing that crap out at a bunch of soldiers with "standard" weapons, I realise a lot of these guys are well trained, fearless, (crazy!?) but it just blew my mind to try to step for a second into the reality of a group of guys pinned down by MG42 fire. Totally freaking terrifying. I can't really begin to extrapolate to even better weapons, tanks, and the scale of these battles involving thousands, no, MILLIONS of troops. I wonder what games have really taken that kind of thing into effect (Fields of Fire maybe?). I know a lot of wargames have morale stuff post-hit, but I mean, just to do anything up front, imagine the difference between a wargame saying OK, I send this squad over this area to here, knowing I will take some dice from an MG42, and then compare to in real life, guys maybe didn't know what was lurking (another terrifying thought), but then imagine the difference in making that same move for real.

  • avatarEl Cuajinais

    Very interesting article, thanks for the write-up. So history reenactment is like hard-core LARPing?

  • MarkD

    I've done medieval re-enactments for just about the past decade for Markland, which is a small organization that does both choreographed real steel combat and SCA style combat. While I've stuck to the SCA style stuff, everything here is spot on.

    The biggest thing I've learned about combat reality vs hollywood is that most one on one fights are going to be single blow affairs. It is nearly impossible to parry blows with a sword. It's the psychology leading up to the first swings from both sides that make combat.

    The other thing is how important leadership is even in small combat (like 10 v 10). I've seen people who can shout and yell and keep even the greenest of people fighting when normally they would have been beaten quickly.

    The one problem with shields is that the bigger the shield, the smaller the area you can counterattack from. Of course with the combat I've done, it's usually shield wall vs shield wall. The shields stand there and take the punishment while the spearmen are taking offensive shots.

  • avatarShellhead

    Both the GURPS and BRP rpg rules have attempted to address many of the issues raised in this article. However, realism can become the enemy of playability, and each group will need to find a balance between the two that keeps the game entertaining.

  • avatarscissors

    This was interesting: when you see chainmail up close it's hard to understand anyone even took five steps in it.

    Much more fun to roll a natural 20!

    For some reason the battle description reminded me of the way battles are described in Bernard Cornwell's The Winter King (1st of the Arthur trilogy) - at least from what I remember.

  • avatarMattDP
    Quote:
    This was interesting: when you see chainmail up close it's hard to understand anyone even took five steps in it.

    It's because the weight is distributed over the body - it's much easier to carry than holding it in your two hands. It's actually far easier to move around in that you might imagine. But all that doesn't help your pulmonary system: moving & fighting in armour does exhaust you very quickly.

  • avatarscitadel

    Nice article Matt. I agree with your points about distance by far, though speed of weapons make a huge difference - even a sidesword against longsword; you 'feel' the difference after a few shots.

    I haven't done a lot of big battles being mostly a rapier fighter, but what you've written is my own experiences too.

    I'd add also that a group that has trained together (even moderately) is significantly more effective than any thrown-together group. And that there's a difference between dueling (one-on-one) combat and actual battle combat. I've known great duelists get their asses kicked in battles really fast.

    MarkD - interestingly enough, the 'one-hit' fights hasn't been my experience. At least, not with experienced fighters.

  • avatarDr. Mabuse

    Great article Matt!

    Quote:
    I know a lot of wargames have morale stuff post-hit, but I mean, just to do anything up front, imagine the difference between a wargame saying OK, I send this squad over this area to here, knowing I will take some dice from an MG42, and then compare to in real life, guys maybe didn't know what was lurking (another terrifying thought), but then imagine the difference in making that same move for real.

    I emphasized those words to make reference to the out of print WW2 card wargame Up Front, which deals with the issue you mention.

  • avatarmads b.

    I used to fence a lot some years back. Sports fencing with a foil and a bit of sabre as well. And even if we just wore kevlar it was hard as hell. And especially in a sabre fight it would be litteraly seconds before a hit was scored.

    Of course the difference is that when you fence to for instance five points you are more careless - something which is even more true with foil and sabre since the rules for both favour the attacker. So I can imagine the fencers in a real duel taking it more slowly in order to size up the opponent. But still, it's freaking hard work.

  • avatardysjunct

    As Shellhead mentions, GURPS gets a lot of things right with combat -- for example armor does not make you clumsy unless it is poorly made or unfitted, but it fatigues you in proportion to its weight. However the whole affair tends to feel kind of lifeless due to a lot of other design decisions.

    The Riddle of Steel is an RPG that was designed by a guy who studied the traditional European martial arts. It's mostly a combat system with some other stuff bolted on, but for my money it comes closest to capturing the feel. OOP, but there's PDFs out there.

  • avatardysjunct

    Also, Hugh Knight's blog at:
    http://talhoffer.blogspot.com/
    ...is worth a read.

  • avatarldsdbomber  - re:
    Dr. Mabuse wrote:
    Great article Matt!
    Quote:
    I know a lot of wargames have morale stuff post-hit, but I mean, just to do anything up front, imagine the difference between a wargame saying OK, I send this squad over this area to here, knowing I will take some dice from an MG42, and then compare to in real life, guys maybe didn't know what was lurking (another terrifying thought), but then imagine the difference in making that same move for real.


    I emphasized those words to make reference to the out of print WW2 card wargame Up Front, which deals with the issue you mention.

    Thanks for mentioning that, I have a copy as yet unplayed and was wondering whether to keep it or not (maybe a bit too detailed for the missus, we'll see) but if it includes that kind of detail I'd be interested to see how it works.

  • avatarMattDP
    Quote:
    And that there's a difference between dueling (one-on-one) combat and actual battle combat. I've known great duelists get their asses kicked in battles really fast.

    Totally. And there's also the whole world of two-weapon fighting, which is ridiculously effective if you can be aggressive enough.

  • avatarMattLoter

    I spent the last few weekends working for the blacksmiths (I mostly move heavy things, but I did make a sweet hook haha) and one of them does full armor, full speed, blunt weapon fighting stuff. I'm hoping to have the time to go train with them since my skills are all about punching and kicking half naked dudes and it seems like it'd be a whole lot of fun.

  • avatarSagrilarus

    When I was at Penn State years back I participated in a reenactment to measure the abilities of officers at various levels to communicate with their soldiers. Some history professor was trying to figure out how the Roman army worked. The goal wasn't so much to worry about inflicting any real damage (the swords and spears were rubber) but to get into the spirit and do what you could to press the opposing line back -- the intimidation factor that Matt speaks of above.

    Here's the thing that became immediately apparent -- warfare with primitive weapons is loud. Nobody was sitting behind a fence and carefully doing anything. Everyone was in a mob shouting at each other. We couldn't receive commands from our Centurion 20 feet away let alone anyone farther up the food chain. Higher command was forced to abandon visual and audio communication in favor of runners to bring the word personally to the Centurions who apparently were very difficult to find. One guy a couple of units down our line had a trumpet and I remember hearing it as I was halfway deep in a scrum getting my head beaten on. That's about the clearest memory I have of the actual brawl -- While angers were flaring for real because people weren't being careful (and I was underneath them) I thought "huh, maybe the trumpet wasn't such a bad idea after all."

    S.

  • avatarInfinityMax

    I like that you mentioned how exhausting it is to fight. I've never been in a brawl that lasted more than ten minutes, but I do know that after ten minutes of serious beating on someone, you're totally exhausted - and that's assuming you're still standing (one unpleasant side effect of fighting is an accumulation of broken bones and ugly bruises, not to mention the tendency to fall down a lot).

    Hell, most fights I've ever had were over as soon as the bouncers showed up, which is generally more than five seconds and less than half a minute. Of course, I don't entirely recall all of them, as I was a tad bit hammered. But I do remember them being pretty damned brutal. Mix alcohol and dames in tight skirts and you've got a recipe for rage-fueled rumbles.

    Ah, good times. Makes me miss being young. If I fought like that now, I would throw my back so far out I would never find it again.

  • avatarShellhead

    I wrestled when I was in high school, and some of the longest minutes of my life were out there in the ring, struggling to win or at least not get pinned. And yeah, after three rounds, I was often exhausted.

  • avatarmjl1783
    Quote:
    Even games that have involved, convoluted, non-random, narrative systems such as that presented by Magic Realm fall woefully short of the mark.

    MR's combat satisfies all but one of the points you raise here, so explain how it falls woefully short of the mark.

    Quote:
    For starters it’s utterly exhausting. Even with a relatively light weapon and no armour you can only keep it up for perhaps ten minutes, and that’s if you’re physically fit. Add a suit of chain mail and a decent sized sword and you can halve that, or less.

    And MR simulates this exact thing. The only way you can strike at an opponent or try to dodge his attacks is to play a fight or move chit. Also, you can't play move or fight chits that don't equal your armor or weapon's weight rating, so using heavy or cumbersome equipment limits what chits you can play right from the start.

    As you go through combat rounds, exerting yourself to swing a heavy weapon (or make a more powerful attack with a lighter one), or taking a hit that glances off of your armor forces you to remove chits from your pool of available maneuvers. The longer you fight, the less effective you become in each round of combat, and if you don't kill your opponent or escape quickly, your character is going to drop from exhaustion.

    Quote:
    So whenever two fighters with weapons of different lengths meet, distance totally dictates the battle.

    You're overstating your case here. Your point about the swordsman being physically unable to inflict a blow as long as the spear point is between them is basically academic. If, for instance, the two men were fighting in the woods, where it's quite difficult to swing an 8' long weapon around, the spear's reach advantage counts for jack shit. Even in open ground, the guy with the spear is fucked against two swordsmen.

    The only time distance totally dictates the battle is if we assume a one-on-one fight, both combatants are in an environment where they can use their weapons effectively, and neither one has armor that gives them an advantage, there is no appreciable difference in skill or discipline between them, etc. And really, unless there's several feet's difference in reach between two weapons, this isn't as crucial a distinction as you're making it sound.

    Still, in MR, all things being equal, weapon length dictates the outcome of the battle. If there's no difference in the time number on the attacks each combatant plays (i.e. neither is considered to have landed a blow before the other could move or attack), it's assumed the one with the longer weapon inflicted a hit before the shorter weapon could close range and reach him.

    Quote:
    Speaking of which, another point that’s often done down in games is the essentially of shields.

    A shield in MR does basically what a shield does in reality; deflects strikes before they reach your body provided you've put the shield between yourself and the oncoming weapon. Even when you're in tip-top shape, a shield can mean the difference between an attack that helps tire you out a little bit and one that kills you outright.

    That only applies if you're fighting something that can't fit your whole shield (and your whole you) in its mouth, though. In a fantasy setting, I'm not sure a shield is all that essential when you're fighting hordes of goblins or giant spiders.

    Quote:
    Distance can be psychological as well as physical, and it’s no less effective. As a gamer, you might be a bit worried about facing down someone with a two-handed axe because it has a big damage dice, but that’s nothing compared with the worry you feel when you’re faced with the prospect of getting to grips with a six-foot beaded lunatic swinging a ten-pound axe that’s bigger than you are for all he’s worth.

    This MR does not do, and nor do most games I've played. I'm not sure this is applicable to fantasy games where you're playing almost superhuman adventurer types, or in wargames where you're not playing individual characters.

    Quote:
    The knowledge that everything is wrong rarely intrudes into my enjoyment of the occasional game of tactical sword-age warfare. Rather I’m more thinking about it as a fertile area of possibly unexplored design space. After all, if someone can write an interesting and engaging game about the split-second intricacies of gunfighting such as Gunslinger, why not one along the same lines involving melee combat?

    There are games like this, but they're usually arena combat games, sports games, or games that simulate one-on-one unarmed fighting. These seem to be the only genres where it is acceptable to model combat this way. Put the kind of detail you're asking for in a fantasy dungeon crawl or adventure game, and people will start howling that it's overly complicated.

  • avatarMattDP
    Quote:
    And MR simulates this exact thing.

    Yes, it does.

    Quote:
    You're overstating your case here

    No, I'm not. You spend three years actually fighting with these weapons on a weekly basis, and then I'll believe you've got some ground to stand on. Even your example is wrong - in the woods, a spearman is actually at an advantage, because you need precious little room to wield a spear properly: all it has to do is stab, twitch the point to a different position, and stab again, whereas a sword needs room to be swung properly. I know all this is true because I've actually done it.

    And as someone who got pretty good with a spear, I can assure you it's not at all hard to keep someone with a shorter weapon away from closing for a killing blow if you know what you're doing. Armour helps, yes, but if you can't get past the spear point, there's only so long before a weak spot is found.

    Quote:
    Even when you're in tip-top shape, a shield can mean the difference between an attack that helps tire you out a little bit and one that kills you outright.

    I may be mis-remembering how shields work in MR then. I thought they were basically one-shot parry devices whereas a real shield can be used over and over again. However ...

    Quote:
    That only applies if you're fighting something that can't fit your whole shield (and your whole you) in its mouth, though. In a fantasy setting, I'm not sure a shield is all that essential when you're fighting hordes of goblins or giant spiders.

    ... this is a really good point. I'd forgotten that MR has to model vast amounts of combat against fantastical opponents too. Given the extra rules weight required for that, it doesn't do a bad job overall, I'll admit.

    Quote:
    Put the kind of detail you're asking for in a fantasy dungeon crawl or adventure game, and people will start howling that it's overly complicated

    Quite right too. I was more thinking of an arena style game. If you know of one, with fantasy creatures, I'd love to hear about it.

  • avatarmjl1783
    Quote:
    No, I'm not. You spend three years actually fighting with these weapons on a weekly basis, and then I'll believe you've got some ground to stand on. Even your example is wrong - in the woods, a spearman is actually at an advantage, because you need precious little room to wield a spear properly: all it has to do is stab, twitch the point to a different position, and stab again, whereas a sword needs room to be swung properly. I know all this is true because I've actually done it.

    I was with a War of 1812 group for a few years, so I did a lot of what is pretty damn close to spear fighting with my Charleville musket. That weapon is even shorter than the spears you were likely using, and if I was in the woods against "Canadian militiamen" armed with hatchets, I was always at a disadvantage. In fact, I got myself pilloried once for deserting in that situation.

    You can't "twitch" the point of a weapon that's as tall as you are 90 degrees when there's all kinds of vegetation around you. All your opponent has to do is put a tree between his angle of approach and your weapon's swing to force you to back away and clear your point of whatever's blocking its arc. On uneven, unfamiliar ground (which the woods usually are), this does a pretty good job of keeping you off balance and forcing your attention on making sure you're only presenting your front facing to your attacker while opening yourself up to an attack on your flank or rear from someone else. When your accoutrements are dangling around and getting caught on low hanging branches, it's even more difficult to keep him in front of you.

    Raw difference in length between weapons dictates tactics, but the shape of the battle itself depends more on terrain, numbers, the discipline of the combatants, luck, and a bunch of other things. I know these things are true because I've actually done it.

    But I haven't actually done jack shit. Neither have you. We've only pretended to do these things, so neither of us really knows what the fuck we're talking about. There's a huge difference in what you can and can't get yourself to do when your life is actually on the line, which you touched on, but still lumped in with your point about distance.

    I have to give it to you mideval guys, though. You get to go more balls-to-the-wall than we did. We had nothing for armor, and our bayonets weren't so blunt that they couldn't still kill you. We also probably had to be more careful about damaging our weapons, since they were very expensive replicas, and an overzealous buttstroke could mean not only a nasty injury, but a few hundred bucks in repairs.

    Quote:
    I was more thinking of an arena style game. If you know of one, with fantasy creatures, I'd love to hear about it.

    With fantasy creatures? Well, it's kind of a moldy oldie, and I've only mucked about with it solo so I can't give it an unqualified recommendation, but Arena of Death. It's like Melee or Man to Man on steroids, so shields and weapon reach are still "wrong," but it does do fatigue and simulaneity reasonably well.

    If you're willing to settle for a historical game with no creatures, AH's Gladiator probably gets you as close to a pre-gunpowder Gunslinger as anything else out there.

    None of these quite cover everything you're talking about, but like I said, if you want all that detail, you're going to have to settle for something convoluted and non-random like Magic Realm. Even in that game, terrain and maneuver are abstracted to a pretty high level, and things like the speed/range of your thrust are boiled down to simple letters and numbers, while fatigue and bringing your weapon back to attack position after a strike are a simple as flipping counters over, yet the combat still gives people headaches for some reason.

    If you think it could be done in a simpler, yet more detailed way, maybe it's time you stepped up and did it yourself.

  • avatarKen B.
    Quote:
    and an overzealous buttstroke could mean not only a nasty injury, but a few hundred bucks in repairs.


    WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU GUYS DOING IN THE WOODS?!?

  • avatarmjl1783

    Hittin' each other with the flat, heavy part of a firearm like men. Like fuckin' American men, that's what.

    ... Also, we rubbed each other's bums from time to time. Just a bit. It gets cold up here at night and, well, when you spend your weekends dressing up in 19th century military uniforms and marching in parades, it kind of cuts down your dating possibilities.

    Don't judge me, goddamnit. I got to shoot a cannon, and at least half of those times, the cannon was a cannon and not a penis.

  • avatarSpace Ghost

    I've mentioned Arena of Death a few times in the forum -- it really is a good, fantasy style gladitorial game. You can team up or go pure solo -- there are also Magic Rules that can be added on from the RuneQuest system. Pretty solid overall -- quite a bit of detail.

    And, it supports basically as many people as want to be in the Arena.

  • avatarSpace Ghost

    Oh -- I see that mjl, mentioned it too. Give it a try, I've liked it for years.

  • avatarKen B.

    Hahahaha...you crack me the fuck up, mjl.

  • avatarmoofrank  - Arena of Death

    I actually never played Arena of Death per se, but we did actually play the full DragonQuest RPG back in the day.

    A relatively heavy and hardcore RPG with a trippy and totally baroque magic system to boot.

  • avatarmads b.

    Those woods you're ... doing stuff in, mjl. Where would they be and how can a guy like me a friend I know join up?

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