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Chaos in the Old World - Review Chaos in the Old World - Review Hot

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khorn_motivation.jpg"From the fires of Betrayal unto the blood of revenge we bringthe name of Lorgar, the Bearer of the Word, the favored Son of Chaos,all praise be given to him. From those that would not heed we offerpraise to those who do, that they might turn their gaze our way andgift us with the Boon of Pain, to turn the Galaxy red with the blood,and feed the hunger of the Gods."

-Excerpt From the 341st Book of Epistles of Lorgar

In the Chaos in the Old Worldboard game, each player takes the role of one of the malevolent Lords of Chaos.Each god’s distinctive powers and legion of followers give the controllingplayer unique strengths and heretical abilities with which to corrupt andenslave the Old World. Yet, as the powers ofChaos seek domination by corruption and conquest, they must vie not onlyagainst each other, but also against the desperate denizens of the Old World who fight to banish the gods back to the maelstrom of the Realm of Chaos. -From the Fantasy Flight Games site


And so it was long before knowing much of anything about the actual game and it's mechanics, that I was totally stoked on Chaos in the Old World already. For those not in the know, the game is set in the
Warhammer universe. It's a fairly generic fantasy setting with some notable exceptions. One of my favorite factions (especially in 40k, the far future version) is Chaos. See, there are four diabolical gods of evil that battle not just the other factions of the world, but also constantly try and screw each other over in their quest for supremacy. Once in a while they might kinda sorta work together, but in Chaos in the Old World it's a god on god orgy of hate. The game really plays this thematic darkness up; you mostly succeed through corruption of regions, you play cards like "Rain of Pus" or "The Skull Throne" and there is definitely no one fighting for the good of the people.


Each god has their own unique flavor and in-game powers that play into it, mostly through their unique action card and upgrade decks but also through the way they advance their threat dials (more on those later). For example, Khorneis the god most into brutal bloody violence and so his powers, and thus play style, focus on direct confrontation and combat with the other gods. Additionally, there are two ways to trigger a win and each god tends to favor adifferent path to victory. I love this kind of thing and the game does it beautifully. The powers are balanced with each other both thematically and mechanically. They each have really strong individual feelings yet it’s not so oppressivein that they make you feel forced to play a certain way, but rather they just give you the vibe that you are playing a specific sect with its own philosophical approach to the destruction of non-believers. Plus the asymmetry leads to great friction between the different player's goals and adds a lot of replayability.


Speaking of the non-believers, while they don't play a major role, the regular citizens of the titular Old World are a constant pain in the ass. They mostly serve to randomly mix up the board conditions and make certain areas more, or less, appealing for corruption. If you know you're going to have to suffer casualties from some stupid good guys trying to stop your pillaging party, you might rethink your plan of attack. The game also has a pile of event/world condition type cards that serve to further a varied game environment throughout. The cards also do a great job of serving as a timer to keep game length in check (when the randomly drawn pile is done, so is the game) and encouraging aggressive play.

citow.jpg

There are two ways to win, advance your threat dial to theend or have the most VP after someone crosses the 50 point threshold. Everyone earns VP in much the same way, but advancing one’s dial is triggered by goals unique to each god, so you have a good mix of people all trying to do the same thing (earn VP) but with different styles and focuses to keep their dial moving up. Even if you are planning to go all out on VP, you still want to pay attention to the dial as it’s also how you earn upgrades and some bonus VP. Two different win conditions is almost always a good thing, but unlike some fluffy other games, if a player hasn't won by the end you don't just add up VP and declare a winner, oh no that is for the faithless, for the Chaos gods are all or nothing; EVERYONE CAN LOSE! That's right, if the game ends through card draws and no one has met either of the win conditions, you’re all heading back to the warp in shame.

The basic play mechanics involved aren't doing anything totally ground breaking which is good and bad. It's bad in that I always love to see designers trying some new things and pushing the envelope even when it doesn't always work out perfect (see Android). But the upside to this more conservative approach is strong. First, it means that the game is very easy to pick up and learn, thereare a couple tricky situations here and there, but anyone who's played even Risk should be able to get it down cold after a turn or two. The second is that the blending and refinement of established mechanics in the game is at a top notch level. Eric Lang has a number of quality designs under his belt already and it shows. (It's also getting me even more excited for his upcoming A Song of Ice and Fire Adventure Game). Chaos in the Old World is really at the forefront of multiplayer conflict "dudes on a map"gaming design now. A lot of people have been pointing out a Euro influence and it's undeniable that some of the ideas came from the classic German pantheon but to me the game is unequivocally Ameritrash in overall execution and feeling. No one is impressing a baron by building the best gingerbread house, you're murdering his wife and eating the babies while you slug it out against your fellow depraved abominations over who can defile the populace first.

Also, just a quick note about the production (as if there was any real question); it's aces almost all the way. Quality sculpts, amazing art direction and graphic theming, solid components and all the attention to presentation detail that you can expect from Fantasy Flight Games. However, as of now there are a couple of known typos (which sadly one can also expect from Fantasy Flight Games) so just make sure you get the errata/FAQ. And there are a few bits of form vs function that they may have gone the wrong way on; the cultist staves look cool in theory but most of them are bent and kinda dumpy looking in reality, and the regions can get a little cluttered and make it hard to see some important info under there too.

Awesome theme, lots of conflict, variable player powers and end game conditions, allin a high quality production. Right now I'm pretty confidant in saying that this is one of the best releases of the year. It's unfortunate timing that itwas released around the same time as
Space Hulk 3rd Ed. and seems to have gotten less attention that it deserves. But I think that slowly but surely the momentum will build as people notice just how great this design is and it will go down as yet another Ameritrash classic that stands the test of time. And if you don’t like it, well, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

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Comments (33)
  • avatarStephen Avery

    Out of all the releases this year this is the one I'm most impressed with (including Space Hulk which takes a close second.) Although Space Hulk has got more chrome, this is one of the really original thematic AT games out there. As a representative of the God(des) Slanesh I am delighted to see our efforts portrayed in this game.

    Steve"ChaosScion"Avery

  • avatarsydo

    I am not that much into CitOW. I don't believe that it has a great replayability - each of the gods has only one way in which he can be played and there is not much room for experiments. Good game but I was expecting a lot more.

  • avatarShellhead

    Chaos in the Old World somehow reminds me of a certain dicetower game. It's not very high on my list of games that I want to try.

  • avatarGary Sax

    Do you guys think there is an opportunity to expand the game by expanding the role for the old world itself against the chaos gods?

  • avatarHatchling

    Solid review. Thanks!

    Quote:
    No one is impressing a baron by building the best gingerbread house, you're murdering his wife and eating the babies while you slug it out against your fellow depraved abominations over who can defile the populace first.

    Nice one!

  • avatarStephen Avery

    Shell head- its all a matter of perception. Someone once jokingly explained Can't Stop to me as "Zombies racing to the end to get a flamethrower." Putting the game into that context immediately made the game 3X more fun. I think playing Chaos in the Old World would be easy to imagine yourself desecrating the world as a chaos lord and that you won't feel that you're playing a euro.

    Steve"SlaneshiFTW"Avery

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    I've been prohibited from reviewing CitOW at Gameshark because Bill Abner wants to take a crack at it, but having just recently played the game I'll say that it is hands down the best game of 2009. There is no other game released in 2009 with such an original, comprehensive theme that extends to both conceptual and executive areas so completely, nor has there been any other game- probably ever- to so successfully combine pure Eurogame mechanics and design concepts with AT theme, conflict, and aggression. It's a brutal, insanely tight-wound game with lots of opportunities for emergent gameplay and variety. There's a touch of DUNE here, and I think the game has got the legs to become an AT classic. There are a couple of ideas here that are pretty innovative- the threat dials, persistent/divergent incentives...it's a brilliant piece of work.

    The one negative is that it's bound to a four player format. With four, it totally works, and it actually is fine for three or even two. But there's very little room for organic expansion. I like the idea presented above by Gary Sax of expanding the Old World's role into a fifth player, but the question lingers if that will upset the highwire-act design of four unique, oppositive powers and sets of abilities.

    It beats out MEQ by virtue of its much more original theme, razor sharp gameplay, and ridiculously tight timeline. It's the frontrunner for Cracked LCD Game of the Year, and I can't see anything topping it.

    Lang's board game work hasn't been very impressive, but he's had a good run with CCGs. CitOW has increased his stock greatly with me, and I'm looking forward to seeing what he does next.

  • avatarMattDP
    Quote:
    It beats out MEQ by virtue of its much more original theme, razor sharp gameplay, and ridiculously tight timeline. It's the frontrunner for Cracked LCD Game of the Year, and I can't see anything topping it.

    I was pondering whether to get MEQ or CitOW for my next major game purchase and this may have clinched it.

    (That won't stop me starting a thread about it and agonizing over the options for days though, followed by the near-inevitable conclusion of my buying them both)

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    MEQ is a great game, but it's also very experimental and risky. Some of the risks don't pay off for some players, and there is a degree of inaccessibility that may keep it from moving beyond a progressive, forward thinking design and into "beloved classic" status.

    CitOW is nintey minutes long. And it's got more gameplay than a lot of games twice its length. The design ideas are as smart and innovative as those in MEQ. And really, what other game has such a diabolical theme?

  • avatarSagrilarus
    Quote:
    The one negative is that it's bound to a four player format.

    Then don't mess with it -- four player is fine. An expansion is just a risk to its reputation.

    If something is as good as you indicate with four then just play it with four.

    Sag.


  • avatarStephen Avery

    I'm already pumped for the "Hammer of Sigmar" expansion.

    ;D

    Stephen"WishfulThinkin"Avery

  • avatarSpace Ghost

    We have only been able to play with three thus far; however, I can tell that four would be much more tense as there would be more "dudes" running around and getting in the way. The game is quite good -- my group has moved it up to #2 this year (behind ToTAN). Early game (turn 1-2) can be a little relaxed, but the rest is a tense mofo.

    The different gods make it replayable, as does only using a fraction of the Old World deck each game. Last night, I won in Turn 4 with a ridiculous endgame blitz with Khorne. Final score was 52, 48, 45 -- the scores were quite close, but unlike many games with the VP track, it didn't seem artificially constrained....it felt like I fought tooth and nail for everything I could get.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    What's really significant too is that the VP track isn't the only way to win it. Playing as Khorne, I almost think it's not worth going for the VP victory in the first place. Just kill LOTS of stuff and max out your threat dial advance on every single turn.

    There's an element to the game that is very much like END OF THE TRIUMVIRATE...the idea that players really have to work together to keep leading players in check while also forwarding their agenda. It creates some interesting alliances of convenience.

    And yeah, you really kind of need four to see that happen at its best.

    The first two turns are really kind of extended setup...but from the third turn on, the major strategic situations that will characterize the game seem to be in place.

  • avatarshryke
    Quote:
    I am not that much into CitOW. I don't believe that it has a great replayability - each of the gods has only one way in which he can be played and there is not much room for experiments. Good game but I was expecting a lot more.

    Your not trying very hard if you only see 1 way to play each God. Every God can pursue both paths to victory many ways and succeed at it. It just depends on what you focus on and what the other players do.

    In the game, your strategy is very dependent on what the other players are doing. It's up to you to slow them down and it's up to you to find a strategy around the way they are trying to slow you down.

  • avatarGary Sax

    Man. I have to play this then. The F:ATties have convinced me to give a game a try I never would have otherwise tried. That's why I love this site. I trust Spaceghost, Barnes and all the other great reviews this game has gotten around here. I may end up buying it.

    And of course I love Warhammer universe.

  • avatarSpace Ghost
    Quote:
    What's really significant too is that the VP track isn't the only way to win it. Playing as Khorne, I almost think it's not worth going for the VP victory in the first place. Just kill LOTS of stuff and max out your threat dial advance on every single turn.

    I agree with this -- multiple ways to victory is very cool.

    The game last night was weird. I actually had secured a corner of the board (the 1st region) and put all four Khorne cultists there. I then just kicked the shit out of stuff where I could, but the opponents were being quite careful with where they were putting their units -- and one of the old world cards limited the number of Chaos cards that could be played in each region to one (it interacted with skaven tokens, and those were everywhere).

    The important thing, is that I had to shift strategies from using Khorne to advance the threat dial and focus more on VPs -- I got in on a couple of "ruiners" points and then ruined the 3rd region on my own to win the game. So as Khorne, I had to use cultists to get VPs and Bloodletters to dominate a couple of regions with the "count attack value of figures" instead of "# of figures" for domination.

    All in all, the game makes you shift strategies depending on what others are doing and the random elements of the Old World deck. I think this is a superb game.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    All in all, the game makes you shift strategies depending on what others are doing and the random elements of the Old World deck.

    I've come to realize that this is one of the key things that separates a "good" game from a "great" game. Emergent gameplay.

  • avatarsydo

    All the multiple ways to victory thing is just an illusion - try to win by VPs as Khorne... CitOW is an euro. A good one, but nothing exceptional for me.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    I think you could do it, but you've sort of got to choose one way or the other from the outset...I realized in my first game (as Khorne) that by turn three I was _never_ going to make the VP goal. There's some interesting abilities in Khorne's set though, like the ability to give the cultists a little fight.

    It's definitely not a Euro. It's a "hybrid" in the purest sense.

  • avatarshryke
    Quote:
    All the multiple ways to victory thing is just an illusion - try to win by VPs as Khorne... CitOW is an euro. A good one, but nothing exceptional for me.

    You need to open your eyes and stop being wrong. It can be done, I've seen it done and someone above you posted about doing it.

    Fuck, the Bloodletter Upgrade exists for a reason. The Khorne VP win is very possible under the right circumstances. The same as with the other gods.

    For instance, as Khorne, stake out the populous middle regions first. Force your enemies to come to you. If they don't, grab up all the sweet VPs they've left behind.

  • avatarsydo

    I have a strange relationship with this game. When I play, I am having fun but when we decide what to play, there is a great amount of games I would play instead of this. I like it, think that it is a good game but it always leaves me kind of cold.

  • avatarMattLoter

    All in all, the game makes you shift strategies depending on what others are doing and the random elements of the Old World deck.

    I've come to realize that this is one of the key things that separates a "good" game from a "great" game. Emergent gameplay.

    I wish I had commented more on this in the review. (I guess that's why you get the big bucks eh?) It's so true and a huge part of what makes the game so great. The variant paths to victory and god powers makes it such that you are constantly shifting minor alliances around and your entire strategy is almost totally dependent on what the other players are doing. Khorne going for VP? Well, if everyone else is busy running away from you the whole time, then you gotta go with what you got and let them eat the scraps on the edges of the board.

    I also think that this is one of those games where early on everyone will have "the strategy" to win but then as time goes on and people play more and more, there will be a much wider variety of plans to win with as the nuances are figured out.

    Also, if this is a Euro, then sign me up for Fortress:Eurotrash.

  • avatarSpace Ghost
    Quote:

    All the multiple ways to victory thing is just an illusion - try to win by VPs as Khorne... CitOW is an euro. A good one, but nothing exceptional for me.

    You mean like I just described?

    The upgrade that I needed, and used, was the one that gave the cultist the fight die. It kept people out of my remote region and allowed me to get all the VPs for ruining it.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    Also, if this is a Euro, then sign me up for Fortress:Eurotrash.

    I'd get in line right behind you. If this is a Euro, then we're casting our lots on the wrong horse. CitOW puts a lot of current AT designs to shame- playing something really cutting-edge like this versus a lot of the derivative, repetitive designs we've seen over the past few years puts into relief how much room for progress and innovation the AT genre holds- if designers are willing to reach for it. The game is pushing the AT definition into new areas and demonstrating new ways to play. In many ways, it's a more radical transformation of the DoaM genre than STARCRAFT or NEXUS OPS were.

  • avatarJonJacob

    That's it. Damnit. I'm buying this thing tonight on my way home. I can't take it anymore.

    The cover is still the coolest cover I've seen in Boardgames in I don't know how long.. since Fireball Island maybe.

  • Mr Skeletor

    I was one of the first too call it as a ripper after Mr Moto trashed it - I was right again!
    This is easily going to be a classic as far as I'm concerned, its just 100% there. No expansions, they will ruin it.
    I don't get the Euro thing - how is this a Euro? Because it has area control? Bullshit. This game is far, far too fucking NASTY to be a Euro. I've dubbed this 'the game of victims' because everytime I have played it at least two players have cracked the fucking shits claiming everyone is ganging up on them! This game seriously gives you a victim mentality because its all about fucking other people up every turn.
    I can't see 2 players working at all. 3 players is fucking great provided everyone has played before and thus knows how to exploit the missing good. 4 players is the best way to learn the game. And the game DOES have a learning curve - the rules are dead simple but after a few games experienced players will cream newbies, and because everyone powerchecks everyone else this can be a problem. Get 4 good players who know what they are doing however and this game is tighter than a nun.
    I disagree with the extended set-up' comment - this game roars at full speed for us from turn one which is one thing I love, the tension is there from 1st turn.
    The first Khorn victory I witnessed was from VP (and was kind of accidental), so it is very doable.
    Easily game of the year. More fun than Hulk, and a stronger design than MEQ.

  • avatarHatchling
    Quote:
    I was one of the first too call it as a ripper after Mr Moto trashed it - I was right again!
    This is easily going to be a classic as far as I'm concerned, its just 100% there. No expansions, they will ruin it.
    I don't get the Euro thing - how is this a Euro? Because it has area control? Bullshit. This game is far, far too fucking NASTY to be a Euro. I've dubbed this 'the game of victims' because everytime I have played it at least two players have cracked the fucking shits claiming everyone is ganging up on them! This game seriously gives you a victim mentality because its all about fucking other people up every turn.
    I can't see 2 players working at all. 3 players is fucking great provided everyone has played before and thus knows how to exploit the missing good. 4 players is the best way to learn the game. And the game DOES have a learning curve - the rules are dead simple but after a few games experienced players will cream newbies, and because everyone powerchecks everyone else this can be a problem. Get 4 good players who know what they are doing however and this game is tighter than a nun.
    I disagree with the extended set-up' comment - this game roars at full speed for us from turn one which is one thing I love, the tension is there from 1st turn.
    The first Khorn victory I witnessed was from VP (and was kind of accidental), so it is very doable.
    Easily game of the year. More fun than Hulk, and a stronger design than MEQ.

    This comment is good enough to stand as a review. I totally agree with every point. A particularly good observation is that some people get a victim's complex because of all the screwage. As Sag mentioned briefly in one of his articles, hurt feelings are a sign of a good game. Still, to minimize the likelihood of people throwing the game's fragile figures across the room, my new policy is to warn people before and during the game that there is no avoiding other people messing with their plans, so they should make that inevitability a central consideration when they work out their strategy during the game.

  • avatarMr MOTO

    Bite me Skeletor. :)

    I didn't say it was the worst game in the world and I didn't trash it but it seemed more work and less fun to me and I'm not alone.

    I'm delighted that you like it though. Everyone has different tastes and it was just far too dry for me even though it seemed to have everything that I usually love in a game. We can't all have the same tastes though, even within the AT realm.

  • avatardragonstout

    It's good to hear Skeletor saying that experienced players will cream newbies, because one concern I had about this game from reading reviews and comments was that a lot of people were all excited about how balanced the game is: "we only ended up a few victory points from each other, so those powers must be balanced!" In my experience, if a bunch of people who've never played a game before are only a few VP from each other in the end, then they're being railroaded and their choices don't really matter. In good games the losers get CREAMED.

  • avatarsydo

    Grr, seems like I have to bite my tongue and play this more. As I said, I can't get myself to play it but when I do, it's lots of fun.

    Btw. Great review Matt, very readable (and I love the pic).

  • avatarSagrilarus

    Please note that the generally accepted meaning of "Eurotrash" has nothing to do with boardgaming, but in my experience is well worth dabbling in.

    Sag.


  • avatarcraniac

    I was the new player with another newbie and two experienced players last night. Some quick impressions:

    The theme is great. I am not game smart. Maybe I'm not smart period, but at the end of the game I was still going, "Wait, how does he click the dial again?" I was playing Nurgle, so I hung out in the populous areas, and didn't fully get the significance of some of the side battles. The game is nasty and fun. It reminded me a little of El Grande, and China, even a bit of Wallenstein. We had some vigorous discussions about crushing the leader, and I want to play it again. The map was baroque to the point of being visually irritating, but some people are going to love it. I'll never buy it, because the four player requirement is too hard for me to fulfill, and it's too complex for my young sons (9 and 12) Maybe in five years. I will be almost fifty then. You could say that the game takes euro mechanisms, then uses them as blunt objects to act out the brutal them.

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