Barnestorming #792- Rex in Review, Toy Story 3 Hot

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOuch! So, the review finally arrives.

If you are a 15 year old that has never heard of Dune and manages to find "cool board games" on Amazon, will you fall in love with it?

It all comes down to how willing people are to buy an old copy off eBay or PnP a copy. The problem is that most people won't do PnP, and the old game does not have quality modern components.

So if you want a great edition of this classic game, there is no good solution. I think FFG have done the best they can in this no-win situation, and as long as they make money out of it, I consider it as much of a win as they could have achieved.

I'm a big fan of FFG, but there seems to be a coat of varnish that they put on all their games' components so that they look the same. They really need to do the next title in watercolors so that it forces them to stretch.

This reminds me of your Android review where you talk about all the things that were right, but somehow the whole was less than the sum of the parts.

S.

Though I am much more of a mechanics vs. theme guy in my reviews, but that is what seemed most odd about Rex for me as well. I have never played Dune, as it was largely before my time and the one copy I got was for some weird reason bad for my allergies, but the number of items in Rex that seriously were thematically awkward or downright bizarre. I mean their explanation of how "influence" is a currency is patently ridiculous as are the victory conditions; it seems odd that the Federation of Sol would magically stop bombing the planet to oblivion just because the Letnev Baronies control three fortresses on the planet.

So while the mechanics are probably fine, though I have some concerns there too, the game is enough of a thematic failure that I am pretty skeptical of it.

I enjoyed Dune the one time I played it. I didn't love it since I never cared for the world all that much, they're good books don't get me wrong but I'm just kind of sick of it by this point in time and the whole license leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Plus being able to play in a fictional world that I read about in a book or comic or saw in a movie really doesn't make me excited like it seems to do for most of nerd culture.

Which means there's no chance of me being interested in Rex either, I'm still in my "I'm done with Boardgames" phase for the time being anyway.

But Sine Mora... Read your review on No High Scores and first things first, great review, second though, tell Bill to get a fucking grip, put that review on Gameshark and give it a metacritic treatment. There's fuck all for reviews on these types of titles and they need it, the need the press way more then all the Ninja Gaiden and Gears of War 3's you can shake a stick at.

Last year my favorite title was an XBLA game and it might work out that way this year too. In general most of my gaming is from those titles so it's always a shame to see so little press on them and Gameshark is in a position to do it. Don't let the gaming public down... man.

In any case it's a great game and the time element, although just a simple little change really, totally changes what strategies are viable in the game and really makes you think in a way I've haven't done in a shooter, except maybe Super Bangai O HD Missle Fury (which is the king in my book, although more puzzley). Now we've got two of these thinking man shoot-em ups and they're considerably different from one another too. There is easily room for both in any library. I'll be playing this one for a long time to come.

Rex is a ghola made me smile, that was inspired. You hit allthe points why I wouldn't buy this game. You say it plays faster than the original? Its hard for us to get six people together, so when it happens I don't mind the original going longer - I want the time to be epic and for that I will play Dune.

If I didn't own Dune, yeah, I'd consider it, but I am glad I don't have to make the choice.

To me Rex sounds like two things merged that have no business being stuck together. It's really kind of weird: companies issue reprints, 'improved' or modified first editions, or new editions of earlier games - here FFG - a comapny I own more games by than any other - have done a mash up that sounds unattractive to me right on the box. The aliens, perfectly cool in TI3, sound ridiculous compared to existing literary characters. And the map? Pls. To see a map of a world - a WORLD gentlemen and gentlewomen - reduced to this, no thanks!

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/24059/my-pretend-gencon-2007-ffg-anounces- re-theming-of

I saw this coming in 2007.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/24059/my-pretend-gencon-2007-ffg-anounces- re-theming-of

I saw this coming in 2007.

You are dead to me.

The best thing about Rex is that people started think about Dune and what a great game Dune is. The first time I played Dune was 1986, the 2nd time I played Dune was 25 years later in 2011. Over the last few months Dune has played 4 times by my game group. One game we had 8 players interested in playing so I gave up my seat so somebody else could play. A couple of years ago we would have 4 guys wanting to play Dune but we couldn't fine the 5 and 6 player.

I saw your second post coming at 1:48.

Haven't read the Gameshark review yet.

What else could they have done? I'm sure FFG would have liked to republish Dune as Dune (particularly after the DQ remake uproar), but they couldn't. It had to be re-themed. Previously, we've discussed how FFG should develop its in-house IPs more than they have. Now they've done it, in a situation that they could benefit from, and they're being criticised for it? Seems hardly fair.

Well, the pornography industry is usually the first industry to adopt any new technologies, so this seems about right. No thematic problem here.

I've never read the Dune books, but when I played Dune I never felt the clash of religions, politics, etc. I don't recall any assemblies or voting going on, no swaying the populaces with religious doctrine. This goes back to theme though and sure if I read the Dune books I could fill in the cracks with religion, politics, ecology, etc but I haven't, and again, this couldn't be Dune. I'm more likely to read the FFG background fluff for Rex, then read the book Dune, so it's possible Rex could feel more thematic for some. This goes back to theme (and maybe I'm confusing setting and theme)...and FFG can't be faulted for having to go another direction.

Why bother? Because Dune is a great game (having source knowledge or not) that's been long out of print. Why bother remaking CE, or Talisman, or FoD? All of these could've been had on the secondary market. Not sure I'll actually play Rex because I know a guy who's got Dune (and I may get my own copy), but I have no problem with FFG remaking Dune. Nor do I have any problem with changes to make the game shorter or dressing it up in a new theme/setting.

hating on Finding Nemo and Up but liking Toy Story 3? I don't know how you can like one and not the others. They are all amazing perfect or near-perfect movies.

Yeah, I also feel pressure to finish ME3 before the ending gets changed. They won't frickin' do it as a patch will they? It better be free DLC or something (I wouldn't even care if it was paid DLC). Just don't PATCH THE GAME, please.

I've downloaded Sine Mora so I'll let you know what I think cuz I know you're dying to hear my opinion. What's Journey?

To be honest, I felt that the second half of Up have lost focus somewhat, with those dogs flying airplanes and the silly and repetitive joke about the voice of the boss-dog. It was a good film, nonetheless. Also, I don't get the hate on Cars. I really enjoyed it, it's a fun story, not my favorite from Pixar (that would be The Incredibles), but fun. Now, Cars 2 may very well be a piece of shit, I don't know, I haven't seen it.

I'm with Jeff White on this one. I've now gotten in three games of Rex, and I've enjoyed all three. You absolutely feel Dune bleeding through if you have even a passing knowledge of the original game, but I'm not a die-hard Dunatic. I have never felt a particularly deep attachment to that setting, so while it's a shame that it couldn't be in this game, I'm quite happy with Rex. I agree that people won't be making their own copies in 20 years, but that's true of most other games too. I don't see how Fantasy Flight could do this game without it being a disappointment for people like Michael.

I noticed last night how much it now feels about the level of abstraction of something like Warrior Knights or Runewars. It's definitely more abstracted than it would have been otherwise, but it's not like it suddenly turned into GIPF. It also made me realize how ahead of its time the original game was, since it's still more interesting and nuanced than either of those other titles.

Im not seeing a Bugs Life on your pixar movies that suck list, why not?

For me the Dune theme is really important, but even if i didnt have a copy i could live with a retheming if the board wasn't so damn ugly. Who does the visual design at FFG? and the creative writing as well (see the back stories in Descent for a prime example of tripe, i can forgive mansions due to the source material)? I appreciate what they are trying to do as a company, but why do we keep getting stuff that is close but uninspired?

As someone who has never played Dune and has almost zero interest in the books/movie/license I think Rex is an OK compromise. FFG probably had the best intentions about doing this reprint right and Rex is the result of several hurdles they needed to overcome.

Not having played it I think it looks/sounds like a very fun game. I agree with some of you that FFG art style has become a bit stale in recent years. I'd very much like to see them break out of their comfort zone.

As for the tech thing being un-thematic in the pleasure zone...Well maybe a scientist is on the run and he was hiding out in the seedy Red Light district. He has plans for some badass technology and he figures he hides among the strippers and prostitutes. I have no problem with stuff like that.

What I do have a problem with is the map. Much like FFG's art-style they often fall back to this "Arkham Horror" style board that is just flat out ugly. I don't care for it in AH, it really sucked in World of Warcraft: The Adventure Game and it seems out of place in Rex as well. I understand why they do it, but the execution is always so garish. It rips you out of the experience. You don't look like you're traversing a planet or world. It looks like the map screen in a video game.

I'm still on the fence about Rex. The fact that it takes 6 people to really enjoy kind of sucks. Also I'm not sure how often it would get played. Games like this always lose out to Cosmic Encounter...which is lighter in rules, but heavy in interaction, back stabbing and meta-game.

I was disappointed that FFG couldn't get the Dune license for the remake, but not terribly disappointed. I read the first three books, but never quite got into the setting. It seemed like the central conflicts were more philosophical than military, economic or religious, and maybe I was a bit young the first time I tackled such weighty subject matter. I re-read those three books about five years ago, and again struggled a bit with the alien setting and dense dialogues, though enjoyed it somewhat more that time.

The first time I played Dune was the year it came out, just a couple of years after I read the books. I played it a few more times during the '80s, and then once about six years ago. Every time, I was struck by the strength of the setting and themes in the game. But it was also clear that came at the expense of quite a few fiddly chrome rules, and it always seemed like I was getting blindsided by one or another during a game.

So I was hoping that FFG might deliver a more streamlined and playable version of Dune, stripping away some of the chrome to reveal the game engine beneath. Did FFG accomplish that much? Or is Rex cluttered with chrome rules as well?

This is going to sound shallow, but the Rex board was the dealbreaker for me. I always liked the classic Dune board, with that concave storm marker circling the 18 sectors of the planet. Replacing that with an Arkham Horror style flowchart was a bad move. It looks lousy and probably replaces the smooth storm mechanic with a clunky card draw.

So despite my tight cash flows right now, I impulsively bought a used copy of the original Dune game last week, and received the game on Monday. Two army tokens were missing, but otherwise it was a decent set, and for only $70 plus shipping. In the days leading up to delivery, I went to BGG and looked through lots of links, reading up on the rules, rules questions and interpretations, and downloaded some of the homebrew play aids. My favorite was the rules summary sheets formatted for A5 paper, with highlighted variations for each specific faction... for example the Emperor sheet mentioned the specific rules for the Sardaukar units.

Once I got Dune, I soloed it so I could get a feel for the rules again. So just a few days ago, I finally comprehended the greatness of Dune. Dune is isn't great because of the thematic chrome rules and exceptions. Dune is great because it's an incredibly dynamic Dudes on a Map game that also has a rich combination of theme and setting. And while the Twilight Imperium setting might not be quite as novel as the Dune setting, FFG could have made a really good game out of Rex anyway. And maybe they have. I will probably never know, because I can't stand looking at that Rex board.

I didn't like Finding Nemo because it's a road movie and I don't like road movies. Dorry (Dolly?) was more than a little annoying as a character too.

I didn't like Up either. I could go on about the talking dogs flying airplanes, old man fights where not one hip is broken, some guy surviving alone in the jungle for decades all the while inventing dog interpreters, some old man and a boy finding a bird in like 5 minutes for which a trained naturalist has spent at least 60 years, the child endangerment without consequence, and actually trying to couple that with a dramatic true-to-life tale of an old man dealing with the loss of the love of his life and only real friend he seemed to have, but I won't.

Up was horrible. It's like three or more concepts crammed together, almost like Pixar was clearing out their "abandoned projects" folder and mushed a bunch of incongrous stuff together.

Finding Nemo was irritating, middling, and pedestrian. The character design was boring, the story maudlin and unengaging.

Haven't seen A Bug's Life. Oddly enough, it came up on the podcast last night with Chick.

I think FFG had three options when they were making Rex:

1) RESKIN - Do a faithful reprint of Dune but change the art & names.
2) NEW GAME - Borrow a couple of mechanics that were cool (the combat wheel) and make a mostly new game from the ground up.
3) TRY TO "FIX" DUNE - Try to figure out how they could "improve" Dune and put their own stamp on it.

I think #1 or #2 would have been great and probably instant buys for me. I think #3 had a slight possibility of improving on Dune but most likely, they would screw up things that worked well already. I'm firmly in the camp but Rex is a good game because Dune is a great game. I have Dune and know several people with it, so I can't see why I'd want Rex unless it either different enough or better than Dune.

Rex likely is the best possible outcome for FFG, but I question the business sense of releasing a game that could stand to please no one completely- the TI3 branding is almost a failsafe to loop in fans of that game, but the setting is so generic and immature that it doesn't stand up outside of TI3 itself. It works there because it's so sprawling and there's so much going on that you don't really notice how uninspired its fiction is.

But in Rex, you're pressing that uninspired, generic setting into a _great_ set of mechanics and trying to make it work. And you can see the stress points, like the recruitment vs. the Tleilaxu tanks, the "influence" vs. Spice.

I hear time and time again "I don't really care that it's not Dune". Well, I don't really care that you don't. The game was originally designed as a Dune board game. Don't give me the "but it was originally about Rome" line. EON was smart enough to find connection points and similar thematic resonances, and it's not like Herbert's concepts weren't influenced by Rome.

Nagajur asked if a 15 year old might be able to fall in love with the game...it could happen, because 15 year olds might still have their mind blown by concepts like space turtles. Or if they pick up on the stuff going on under the hood, which is still brilliant.

Steve, the map is a good enough reason to reject this game- and that does tie into where it breaks down thematically. When you see that simple, circular map of Arrakis, you have a very clear depiction of geography, proximities, and where the storm is going. The idiotic Rex map makes this difficult to parse, regardless of the numbers in each sector. I have no idea what the thinking was behind doing the map like that, but I think it's a total disaster.

Then there's the artwork. Cluttered, muddy, and ugly. FFG is in a rut with some of its graphic design. At this point, a lot of what they're doing lacks taste and is almost laughably overwrought. I really liked the artwork in Wiz-War because it was going in a different direction. Team Manager also had a more interesting visual sense. The map is part of the visual problem, absolutely.

About "it was originally about Rome": if I understand the development history of Dune correctly, really the only thing the "Rome game" had in common with Dune was the combat system. The combat system is admittedly brilliant. But at *least* half of the brilliance of Dune is in the 6 interlocking special powers, and those were built from the ground up specifically for Dune.

About the line in the review mentioning other designers mucking with the Dune rules to make Rex: I'd say that on balance, Rex's rules are closer to the original designer's intent than Dune's rules if you include the optional or advanced rules. The EON guys *hated* the optional & advanced rules, that was Avalon Hill mucking with their design. I was going to ask Shellhead what rules seemed like "chrome clutter", but since the game w/o optional/advanced rules is as streamlined and sleek as a Eurogame, I can only imagine he was talking about something in the optionals.

Much like Mr. George Lucas, I don't really care if the EON guys hated some of those rules and would prefer to revise them. The game has been out in the public for long enough to develop a life of it's own. Of course, it's their right to change it but I can call it out as a mistake. The Optional Rules for Dune are great. The Advanced Rules sucked but some of the worst of those made into the Rex Rules as standard rules.

But Sine Mora... Read your review on No High Scores and first things first, great review, second though, tell Bill to get a fucking grip, put that review on Gameshark and give it a metacritic treatment.

My grip is fine. Firm, even.

That decision:

A: wasn't made by me
B: is totally out of my control

"Chrome clutter" in Dune?

1. Those one use only special powers based on Karama.

2. The overly complex default win condition for the Fremen.

3. The Sardaukar combat bonus that doesn't work against Fremen.

4. The complicated implications of the Bene Gesserit co-existence rules.

5. The Harkonnen ability to kidnap a random leader after winning a battle.

None of these rules suck, but I just wish that each faction could have just a couple of clean, easily understood special abilities, something along the lines of Cosmic Encounter. The basic rules for Dune are short and get right to the point, but the number of fiddly chrome exceptions is challenging for a casual player. Rex represented an opportunity to smooth over some of that chrome and focus more on the main action, but none of the reviews that I've seen so far have left me with that impression.

And I'm sure they don't really care that you don't really care that they don't. To which you can respond with "And I don't care that...", but let's stop the infinite regress right here. The point is, it doesn't fucking matter that you don't care, and it pretty much matters that they don't care, because the question was "does Rex work on its own, or only in relation with Dune". And if there are people who enjoy it without knowing anything about Dune, and referring to the factions as "Bene Gesserit" and "Harkonnen", then the answer is a loud "yes, it does", whether you like it, or not. You and your group may refer to them by their Dune names, but that's only because you played the shit out of the original, so you cannot not do it.

Also, the "ugliness" of the board is blown way out of proportion. It looks better than the very similar Arkham Horror board, and I don't see people complaining about that one. It's functional and visualizing the movement of the fleet is not hard at all. It's just that you are used to the map-like board, so, to you, anything else looks bad.

I hate to say it, especially only two days after the "Creatures of Emotion" article, but you are clearly blinded by nostalgia. You are basically just looking for excuses to hate the game, because you can't get over the fact that you couldn't get Dune with better components. That sucks, I agree, but don't take it out on people, whose only crime is that they can enjoy Rex without constantly thinking about Dune.

Yeah, Jon Jacob- Bill didn't make the decision to not cover the XBLA/PSN stuff. That was from on high at Mad Catz. It's all good, we're still doing Crom's work and doing the AAA stuff there, the little stuff at NHS.

So which would be the game for me and my group?

My group is four (sometimes five, but rare). We have about four hours to game. I have no ties to Dune having never read a book or watched a movie. The others have no idea that either of these games exist.

Things that should not play into the recommendation:
-Map layout
-Overall graphic design
-Which is the better theme/setting
-Obtaining one over the other

Both games sound good if not great, but knowing that I usually have four and usually have only four hours which would be better? Dune? Rex? Perhaps neither since we're usually four and I should just get Cosmic Encounter?

As far as I know, there's no difference between Dune and Rex, regarding the optimal number of players. It's 6, maybe 5. And they are both "recommended" with 4. Also, CE is best with 5, works with 4, according to the general consensus.

So, I would recommend Tichu. :)

From what I've been reading, you would be better off with Rex because it can definitely be played within four hours. Dune can be over really fast, or it can go the whole 15 turns and take 6 hours if your group does a lot of bribing and deal-making.

Or maybe Cosmic Encounter would be better, if four is your usual number. You should be able to get in two games per session, and there is vast variability with all the races and expansions.

But at *least* half of the brilliance of Dune is in the 6 interlocking special powers, and those were built from the ground up specifically for Dune.

Absolutely. And the fact that those powers are keyed very specifically to analogs in the Dune setting is indeliable.

Broken down, Dune really is the powers and the combat wheels. Those are the essential mechanics.

If you ask me, the combat wheels should have become as common as dice as a resolution mechanic.

I'd say that on balance, Rex's rules are closer to the original designer's intent than Dune's rules if you include the optional or advanced rules. The EON guys *hated* the optional & advanced rules, that was Avalon Hill mucking with their design.

I'd agree with that, but I also agree with Griff that after 30 years, the game is out of their hands and has a life of its own.

I also agree with Griff's point #2 up there, it would have been better if FFG had just done an all-new game inspired by Dune's mechanics. Not like they haven't already done that, really...

One thing I do not agree with and that I think is absolute bullshit is this sort of idea in the aether that there were things in Dune that were "too complex" for modern gamers. I've heard that everywhere from FFG insiders to Shellhead up there. How is ANYTHING in the original design MORE complex than the past eight years of FFG design? Rex is more complicated and confusing than Dune ever was.

Wice, are you not aware that my review- and subsequent comments about the game- are from my perspective? Other people have different opinions. I'm not quite sure how I'm "taking it out" on anyone that likes the game. There's LOTS to like about it. I don't hate it at all, so don't mischaracterize my sentiment.

As for Nostalgia, I played Dune for the first time in 2005. I didn't grow up playing it, and I never expected to play any other edition than my beat-up Sting copy. It does not matter one flying fuck to me if I get to play with new components or not, and I'm hardly nostalgic for the good old days of playing it in the 1980s or whatever. Don't assume.

Von Tush- Cosmic. It's really the better game overall, and FFG's reprint is outstanding.

"Broken down, Dune really is the powers and the combat wheels. Those are the essential mechanics."

I'm almost with you there. But the interplay between the storm, the spice blow, the layout of the Dune board, and the ability to ship in troops also makes for an unusually dynamic DoaM game. Usually DoaM involves slogging through adjacent terrain to capture and hold territory. With Dune, only a few key locations are of critical value, and the storm and the spice blow combinations can create drastic temporary shifts in the value of a few other locations. The ability to ship in the troops bypasses the usual focus on proximity in DoaM games.

As for my comments about the chrome rules... I don't think that they're too difficult. They just aren't crucial elements of what makes Dune great. The distinctive powers in the basic rules are good enough. The additional ones from the optional and advanced rules suffer from diminishing returns... they aren't required to give the factions identity and flavor, and the trade-off in terms of complexity isn't worth it. That said, I intend to play Dune with all those rules every time. Just don't ask me to use the Spice Harvest or Duel rules, because they unbalance the game in too many ways.

Outside of the win conditions for the Fremen, ALL of those are optional rules that the original designers have gone on record as considering them as abominations, for pretty much the same reason you do, they're clutter. If you don't like them, don't use them, neither do I and neither does Peter Olotka!

(preemptively: many, MOST even, disagree with this perspective)

"Taking it out" may have been a bit strong, but you were basically implying, that anyone who doesn't care that it's not Dune, is wrong, simply because you care. And I'm well aware, that it's just your opinion (since you are clearly wrong), but you try to make it sound like it's objective fact. While the fact is, that Rex is probably as good as Dune, it just has the handicap of having to live up to a much stronger setting.

Nostalgia has nothing to do with childhood. It's just a feeling that some things of the past are better than some things of the present. You have a strong emotional connection to the old setting, and can't get over the fact that it has been changed. I can understand it, I would rather play the factions of Dune than the races of TI3, but I'm sure that someone, who has no knowledge of or interest in Dune, but played TI3 a thousand times, would find Rex much more appealing and very thematic.

You can stop right there without any other information: Cosmic.

Von Tush - I wouldn't play Dune or Rex with 4. I really wouldn't play them with 5 either unless you were biting at the bit to get to the table. They really are 6 player games and anything less is a pale reflection. With 4 players , you could do worse than Cosmic Encounter but even that seems improved with a high number of players. The real problem is that having 3 or 4 players doesn't really lend itself to the backstabbing genre. If I wanted to play something of that ilk for 4, then Cosmic Encounter, Republic of Rome, Game of Thrones - Storm of Swords variant, Napoleonic Wars, Warrior Knights, Sword of Rome, or Game of Thrones LCG would probably be the choice.

I think that what I am hearing is that integrating a good game with strong background material can make it a great game. However, if you integrate a good game with weak background material, you still have a good game, but not a great one. This makes sense to me because strong background material that is brought forth in the game mechanics itself results in my having stronger feelings and a greater emotional investment in the game.

Like imagine War of the Ring re-themed with the fellowship being a small military unit trying to sneak a bomb into the enemy stronghold. You could make it work, but some stuff would be forced and some stuff wouldn't make intuitive sense. As a player I just wouldn't get the same feeling I get when I know my weak little hobbits are nearing their goal, if it was just a couple of army dudes, even if those dudes had cute names.

I think that's pretty much the most succinct anyone has put it. As I've said somewhere (probably here), I would feel equally ambivalent about a reprint of Battlestar Galactica without the BSG license. Why bother indeed?

I am totally fine with Michael's review, Wice. He made it clear, he tried to come in with an open mind but Rex repeatedly just drew attention to the fact that it's the old game in a new coat of paint. Unfortunately, in his case, the coat of paint was one of the key things that made the original great. He reflected that really well in the review.

I don't have a problem with "it doesn't work for me, because I'm keep thinking about Dune while I play it". But I think it's not entirely what Michael is saying, his claims are much more universal. And his (understandably) biased views can poison the well for potential new players (at least for those, whose primary source of information on boardgames is Cracked LCD), who otherwise wouldn't really mind the new setting. That's my problem.

Wice, just imagine that Barnes typed "I think" or "In my opinion" at the start of every sentence of his review. Now imagine how tedious that would be. Then go back and re-read it the way he actually wrote it with that in mind.

Thank you all for the responses. It seems like I need to recruit another guy or two for my group!

Still not seeing how halving the play time in Rex isn't a reason to bother with it over Dune. Still looks a big win to me.

I think I disagree with you about Rex. I think it's actually quite different from Dune in some fairly fundamental respects. I also think FOG might have had more options with it than you imply. Need to play it again to be sure. But I'll have my own review in the fullness of time.

If someon can manage to tweak the origin so that it'll play in 2 hours. then I'll agree there's no point to Rex.

Wish I could hit the "thank you" button here, and wish I could copy-and-paste this into about a million forum threads.

Has anyone corroborated this? I'm skeptical that this is true. It sounds like the *variance* in play time is down, but not necessarily the average playtime. Halving a time limit doesn't halve the play time if the time limit is rarely reached.

Also, what does "I also think FOG might have had more options with it than you imply" mean? I am utterly befuddled by this sentence.

Dune's excessive length is overstated. I don't think I've ever played a 6-8 hour game of it. The longest was probably about 5, but likely included lots of cutting up, was played in a public event, and involved drinking.

I also don't think I've ever seen a full 12 turn game. It is true that it can end in three or eight, which is a huge swing in terms of duration.

Last sunday night, Rex went five hours. So "halved"? No.

IN MY OPINION

Typing on my phone. FOG is the auto-correct of F F G.

And although 2 hours is extreme, 3 is not and has been widely corroborated. That'sabout the realistic absolute minimum for a game of Dune that doesn't gave a stupidly rapid end.

The board *gah* the board. I dislike this kind of design generally whether it is in AH or Android or here. Just find it plain ugly and jarring - wrenches me out of the theme. There really seems to be too much visual clutter. Having a world map is just cleaner and easier to overview. If Rex didnt have that fugly board... put it this way - does anyone actually like it?

I've played three games of Rex, and none of them have come in any shorter than 3 hours. These have all been played with some slow players, which doesn't help. But mostly, it just runs about that rate.

I'd like to hear from someone that _likes_ the map too. It's an absolute mess. I _hate_ that I can't look at it and at a glance see where the storm (oops, Imperial Navy...uh...Earth Defense Force is it? Or is it the Terrinoth Space Fleet?) is and where it's going. The circular, sectored map made complete sense given the mechanics and process.

There was no need to go to a point-to-point thing, let alone one that's confusing and makes for a hard read. But of course, if you're changing it to this stupid urban setting, a world map doesn't work.

FFG could have done something very close to Dune. There's a planet that produces a unique resource- let's call it Unobtanium. The TI3 factions have a similar arrangement as the Houses in Dune to cultivate and mine it from this planet. The fluff becomes a conflict between the natives, the ruling races, and mercantile bodies. This wouldn't be plagarism. And it wouldn't require a license. Or that piece of shit map.

Or, you throw all that away and write an garbage eight page story to try to vindicate changing the entire concept of the game.

See? SanIlDefanso corroborates the 3 hour play time. Frankly Michael it's childish and irresponsible to be spreading around five hours like it's fact and without stating clearly on big type red letters that it's just your own personal experience. Shame on you.

That's kind of what I figured, but I was still confused. What do you mean by "FFG had more options with it than implied"? Like, they could have made it much closer to Dune if they wanted? I definitely think that's true. I think, legally, they could have easily kept very nearly the same map (certainly the same style), same everything but rethemed, but they chose not to. Not saying that's a good or bad thing, since really guys, you CAN still buy Dune, just not in a game store.

I have had incredibly long games of Dune. I believe at the WBC tournaments, which are theoretically among expert, experienced players, the AVERAGE length was around 6 hours until recently when they instituted some rules changes to shorten it. If anything in Rex shortened Dune, I wouldn't think it'd be the change in round limit so much as the change in secrecy & bribery rules. In our Dune games we had *lots* of secret discussions among allies, and we had lots of negotiation & bribes, all of which is pretty much forbidden in Rex (negotiation is not forbidden, obviously, but with bribes so restricted and no "public deals are binding" rule, it seems like that would be lessened; to me, that binding-deals rule is an essential part of Dune, that I can't imagine liking in any other game).

When I feel like writing another Android app to follow up on my Gunslinger app, it'll be an Atreides note-taking app to shave some pointless time off of Dune without instituting the "no notes" rule of Rex.

I think the unobtanium version you suggest Mike, would be more successful in, if nothing else, capturing something of the spirit of the original game, and the similarity in broader terms, ie. planet, easier to track storm movement, would have made even the TI 3 thing more endearing. I wouldn't mind the turtle guys etc if the thing was a more accurate replica or skin of the original game on the whole, not just in play but overall visual appearance.

For some reason I think it would work well enough with dune rex where it clearly would not with something like WotR which Uba excellently pointed to above, where the narrative is more specific.

Basically, a lot of people like me wanted an updated Dune and if not with the original setting as close as you could get. Thats the camp I fall into, anyway.

For exsmple, The new DQ looks enough like the old one that I feel I was getting a long lost classic. The baddies inside may be different but it retains tiles, dungeon corridors, the same basic aesthetic.

I said that I was worried about this review due to too much bias. Turns out I was worried for a good reason.

The first sentence in the review is Dune, yet this game is NOT Dune. It's almost completely derivative of Dune, sure, but the whole review is essentially a thesis on why Dune is a better game and why this isn't worth it since Dune exists.

What I was hoping for was a review that looked at the game solely on its own merits, which I think I kind-of got, but there was so much Dune-taint (which isn't the underside of a sandworm) that I can't really look at this as definitive as I'd have liked to do.

:(

I wish you'd have not gone there. We all know what Dune is. I wanted to know what Rex IS, not what it isn't. I think that it would be very hard to be impartial if you love Dune, and this kind of confirms it.

After reading it, all I know is that Dune wasn't updated or replaced. This is a soulless shell that happens to share some mechanics with it.

I think that was kind of Barnes' whole point, Pete, that the Dune-taint is inescapable, that he wanted to do what you are asking for but found that the ties were so close that he just *couldn't*.

PS: MattDP, I know you were joking about Barnes, but SanIlDefanso was saying that all of his Rex games took at LEAST 3 hours.

Yeah, the "no notes/no off table discussions" thing really shows how much the "wheels within wheels" treachery theme stuck to Rex, doesn't it?

We threw that rule right out the window. That's for namby pamby cowards who worry about "hidden" things causing them to lose. How the hell are you going to coordinate attacks with allies with everybody right there?

Pete, I really wanted to review the game on its own merits and I tried, but you just can't take the Dune out of it. Every time I started writing about it, I couldn't get around it. The thing is, I did write about EXACTLY what Rex is, and that's an artificial, not-quite-right clone of Dune with a new skin. It simply does not exist without Dune, even if that setting and those terms mean nothing to you. If you take out the Dune analogs, all you're left with is a thin, paltry theme that barely covers the mechanics...and stretches to thin to cover them at that.

As for bias, every single review I've ever written is rife to the bone with bias. Reviews without bias are product descriptions. Period.

Oddly Scissors, I think they did try to maintain a certain sense of the Dune aesthetic- the fonts, pallette, and sort of Art Noveau/deco influence is sort of a de facto Dune look. And man, that box is yellow and orange- Arrakeen colors, no?

I think the thinking at FFG was to do something that looked and felt like a new game to rope in the old Dune players, while retaining the interest of folks for whom the game may as well have been designed last week. The problem is that it's one of those situations where you risk pleasing no one.

But I'm with you- if the narrative context and concepts were closer to Dune, such as the planetary scale and the focus on a super-resource, then the space turtles and space cats would be more palatable.

I had really hoped that the design would hew closer to Dune's context and formatting...I don't see why it couldn't have.

Oh but wait, there's that whole marking territory thing too...and that arrogant "we can make it better" attitude...

Something else to add about reviewing the game without Dune...I think it actually winds up being dishonest and inaccurate if the Dune connection is not fully defined and criticized.

unobtainium, thats from the core right? To me FFGs attempts at creative writing come off similar to the modern star wars films. The core is about on par with revenge of the sith, possibly better

It's interesting that some people over at BGG are already posting up their own customized Rex maps, in an effort to improve on the ugly FFG map.

And most of them are pretty ugly too.

I don't mind the fact that the board is point-to-point. That makes sense if they're fighting in a city. But it doesn't have much in the way of form at all. It's just a bunch of spots on the board. I could live with that, but it seriously impedes the movement of the fleet to have to figure out where it goes next every turn.

I do like the graphics of the game. The effect of the fleet and the pieces on the board does mask some of the more irritating features of the board. And I like the illustrations a lot too. I can certainly see how it looks too busy (it can be hard to find details), but the overall package I find to be quite good.

I know why you did it the way you did it, Michael. And I would've done it the same, but you're better than I am.

I was hoping to see Rex from the perspective of it standing on its own. We know that Thunderstone is derivative of Dominon, but we don't always hear the two compared so head-to-head. I guess what I was hoping for was a Barnes critique based solely on its own merit, without looking back to Dune as a baseline.

But, I expect that there's really no doing that.

The idea of REX standing on it's own was thrown out the window the moment FFG announced they had the rights to Dune and were remaking it in the TI Universe. The reason REX has any kind of community buzz is exactly because it's a re-implementation of Dune, so why is it off limits to compare the two? Dune isn't a great game just because of the mechanisms used in the game, but also because of the thematic tie-ins that bring the story to the table. If the greatness of Dune is partially because of the thematic integration, and REX is missing that, then it's totally fair to acknowledge that REX is missing those elements.

clockwirk nailed it

I'm fine with the map. Really. I don't really understand the rather vituperative objection to it if a) you're trying to present an urban setting with actual locale names rather than just "downtown" and b) those locales have different environments based on the rules of the game (fortresses, etc.) I don't think it's difficult at all to envision a sprawling city that has transport mechanisms (subways, aircars, whatever) that get people from important point to important point. I believe that's the visualization they were attempting here.

I also think FFG was kind of caught in a bad place with this one. Clearly, with the rights to the game but not the world, they would like to publish something with a wonderful set of mechanics. Would you prefer that they come up with something completely generic and sterile rather than the foundation they'd already established with TI? How would that have been any better? Is TI a pretty generic space opera setting? Yes. But if you stop and read the background on the races in TI3 and its various expansions, it's pretty impressive how closely they hew to various entities in Dune. Was that a conscious or unconscious effort by Petersen when he created it? Probably. The Harkonnen have become the archetypal "bad guy" house, symbolized by treachery and an overindustrialized world... Meet the BARONY of Letnev!

So, with that in mind, is it really that jarring to have it be "not Dune"? To me, the only two factions that I have a hard time linking are the Xxcha and the Jol-Nar, since the Bene Gesserit and the Atreides are the two that really embraced the mysticism inherent to Dune which doesn't exist at all, to date, in TI3. But I can live with it. I think that for all the grief FFG is taking over doing "not Dune", doing something like unobtainium (since it's a metal, let's call it Mine) would have been ridiculous and a disservice to all of their creative people. Imagine CP walking in and telling them: "Here's a challenge: adapt the legendary world of the theme for this classic game to our stuff." Or should it have been: "Hey! We have Dune! Since you people have no imagination, let's just rip everything off and call it Mine!" Does anyone think that would have gotten a better response from their customers, including us? Personally, I would have lost a lot of respect for them.

Does TI3 come close to Dune? No, not in the historical telling of just those 6 races (Strangely, no one remembers that Dune actually tied with Zelazny's This Immortal for the Hugo away for best novel that year...) As a veteran TI3 player, my first question is: Where were the N'orr during all this? I do think that the background of the current setting has a lot more meat to it and would have been more workable in that respect. Plus, they could have used the Yin for the Bene Gesserit... But they wanted to emulate the "historical majesty" of Dune and decided to go in that direction. So be it. It doesn't affect the game for me. I've played Dune. I like Dune. I've played Rex. I like Rex. Neither will probably ever be in my top 10; perhaps because of the nature of my group (which struggles to do negotiation-type games); perhaps because of the subject matter. While I am a huge SF fan, I was never a huge Dune fan. It's a good story, not a revelatory one. Tell me to pick a DoaM game with intense complexity, card play, and table negotiations, and I'll pick Here I Stand every time. But I think Rex is fine for what it is and am glad it's "not Dune", as opposed to Mine.

Michael Barnes wrote:
"Last sunday night, Rex went five hours. So "halved"? No.
IN MY OPINION"
Now this is just getting confusing. Why, oh why, didn't you think to ask all five other players how long the game lasted in their opinion? At least then you'd have an approximate consensus. In future, Michael, I think we'd all appreciate it if you used a stopwatch to time your games. We cannot have fuzzy opinions sneaking into reviews, they should be banished to the nether regions of Barney
's film comments. We want cold, hard facts, man!

(Do I really need to put a smiley in here?)

(I enjoyed the review but am firmly in the 'I have Dune so why bother' camp.)

Oddly enough, the one thing I thought FFG got right is the rules changes. I do really like most of the tweaks to the base system (except for losing the totally useless cards. That's just heresy.

Again, the real problem with complexity in the original Dune is with roles and schemes. Your overall strategy in Dune/Rex is heavily defined by your role, more than even a game like the FFG Civilization or TI3, because the game is SO very asymmetric. It also affects who your compatible allies are...

That is a pretty serious problem with Rex, as nothing in the game even hints at how to approach those elements. Dune handles this by closely matching the first novel. In our first game of Rex, we had a Emperor/Guild Alliance, a Harkonnen/Fremen Alliance, and a Bene/Atredies Alliance. The Harkonnen player avoided combat, the Fremen and Atredies hoarded their money to buy cards and never got a ton of troops out. You can pretty much guess where the game went.

Just imagine that I fully understand that it's just his opinion. It's not hard to do, considering that I explicitly stated it earlier. Subjectivity in reviews is unavoidable and completely fine. Even bias is fine. If you personally can't get over the fact that the setting is changed, because you find the original more interesting and thematic, it's worth a paragraph in the review. It's not worth framing the whole review around it, because that's not a review anymore, just a love letter to the original setting. At least try to imagine what it's like to be a person without your personal bias, and look at the game through those glasses.

(BTW, just imagine, that when I sad "do this or that", I typed "I think that in my personal, subjective opinion it would make a better, more useful review, if you" before that.)

Though I love the first four Dune novels, I never played the original board game. But I have been hearing about it for a couple of decades now from massive fans who have hyped it far beyond reasonable expectations. So I went into Rex cautiously optimistic.

Having played it a couple of times now, I have none of the problems mentioned above with it. I think the map is just fine. I like the art style - I don't get that complaint at all. Fantasy Flight's graphic artists are top-notch. I like the theme and find it neither bland nor uninspired. I don't see any glaring flaws, nor do I think its theme feels tacked on. In fact, I think its got far, far, far more of a narrative theme than the vast majority of board games, most of which have very shallow themes with little to no back story. They have very obviously put a lot of work into coming up with a theme that fits the mechanics, and I think it works.

Approaching this as a new game without any attachment to the original, I think it's a great game, possibly the best game I've played this year, and I think people like me would be missing out if they hadn't republished it.

Whoah, whoah...when did Barnes and Pete become a two way channel again?

No Kulon = no game. The absence of the worthless cards killed Rex for me.

I played my second game of rex last night. We had four players at my university game club. The game was fantastic, it is quickly becoming one of my favorite games. I have a long standing group of extremely veteran TI3 players so I am very well versed in the T13 universe and I think the thematic fit really works.

The invasion of Mecatol Rex and subsequent fall of the Lazax empire is the biggest singular event in the universe and having dune ported to that story really works.

Our four players were quite different one had zero experience with either dune or TI3, two of them were experienced T13 players and I am experienced with both. I taught the game without making any reference to dune and the new player had zero problem picking it up and enjoying the theme, while the rest of us were reveling in the Twilight Imperium goodness.

I think the mechanical changes made between dune and REX work out for a better more streamlined game. The balance is all still there and the race powers/theme are a good fit. Being familiar with the T13 races all the abilities really do fit with I think the Jol-nar having the loosest thematic fit. I've played T13 since the first edition when it was just little palper chits for ships, and getting to play the watershed event in the games story using the dune mechanics is a real treat.

I own and love Dune but getting a modernization of the components and design plus a great theme means Dune is probably going to collect dust on my shelf as a novelty from now on. I really don't see a point in playing it now that I have REX.

In other words all y'all are super wrong and REX is fantastic!

It is a planetary scale. Mecatol Rex is a planet city akin to Trantor or Coruscant.