Articles Reviews Next of Ken, Volume 52: Spidey Begins, Duels of the Planeswalker 2013, and Abada...Abb...Abaddon!
 

Next of Ken, Volume 52: Spidey Begins, Duels of the Planeswalker 2013, and Abada...Abb...Abaddon! Next of Ken, Volume 52:  Spidey Begins, Duels of the Planeswalker 2013, and Abada...Abb...Abaddon! Hot

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Websling your way into this week's Next of Ken, where I'll be talking the Spider-Man reboot, Magic: Duels of the Planeswalkers 2013, and Toy Vault's newest game, Abbie Doobie.  Uh...Abaddon.  Join us, won't you?

  


Wealth and Fame, He Ignores, Action is His Reward

The Amazing Spider-Man theatrical posterWhether fans truly asked for it or not, the reboot of the Spider-man franchise came swinging (HAW!) into theaters last week and did some pretty amazing (DOUBLE HAW!) bank.

My wife and I went and saw it and though it lacked some of the heart and panache of Raimi's first two Spidey flicks, I found myself grudgingly enjoying it. I had to admit to myself that if his were the first Spider-man movie we'd gotten, we'd have all been pretty floored by this. After all, most of us have forgotten that we sat in the darkened theater in 2002 fully expecting Spider-Man to suck sour ass and instead left feeling like a million bucks.

Andrew Garfield plays Peter too much "nervous tic", constantly swinging his head around and twitching his mouth when he talks. He also looks like a hipster douche who would ride his skateboard in the mall on the way to buying up Pac-Man shirts at Hot Topic.

As Spidey though, he honestly does a great job, dropping all of that random head movement and getting in some nice quips ("Oh no! You've discovered my weakness!")

The story itself isn't as clear, getting a little muddled in spots and leaving some fairly rough transitions and character changes. One thing it does get right is the Peter/Uncle Ben relationship, which I felt was better here than in Raimi's film. Of course, I also felt that they handled the death of Uncle Ben (uh, spoiler?) much *worse* than the first movie, making Peter's lack of action less deliberate and pronounced. I have read the opposite opinion online (that the Peter/Uncle Ben stuff was amazing spider man movie s640x420worse, but the death was better) so your mileage may indeed vary.

I know that a reboot wasn't what everyone wanted, but after the remarkably overstuffed and generally shitty Spider-Man 3, where were they going to go? Personally I'm extremelly glad we returned to a Spidey universe where every major villain wasn't already dead and SANDMAN HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH UNCLE BEN'S DEATH...


Ahem.

Anyway, it's a pretty fun time, the only reason anyone would look down on it would be because of Raimi's first two Spider-Man movies. Fair or no, that comparison will always be made. If you want to see it, go catch it before The Dark Knight Rises obliterates it in a few weeks.

But hey, Spidey film maker people?  Can we please get a movie where Spider-Man doesn't take his damned mask off in EVERY FRICKIN' SCENE?  Please?  By the fourth or fifth time he did it, I'm rolling my eyes.  Raimi's movies did this too.  Please stop?


Winter Nights We Sang in Tune, Played Inside the Months of Moon

Magic DotPW 2013 Screen 1I've dug knee-deep into Magic: Duels of the Planeswalkers 2013 on my PS3 and I am sooo digging it. My brother and I have been battling the old "Magic addict" bug lately, and this really is a pretty good fix.

Right now I'm in campaign mode, and that's the mode that's the heart of unlocking more goodies. You have a very limited selection at first and as you play through the "story" (term used fairly lightly here) you'll defeat progressively more dangerous foes and unlock new cards and decks along the way.

The interface is smooth and polished, and what struck me is how gorgeous a lot of the Magic art is in HD. The loading screens are full-screen HD shots of some of the better art in the game.

As an old Magic player, the only thing I'm not sure I enjoy as much is how limited your deck-tweaking options are. Really digging into the core of a deck and changing it up radically--or even starting from scratch--is what make a lot of Magic players tick. Here, you'll have a selection of extra cards you can unlock for each deck and swap 'em out on a one-for-one basis, but that selection of cards is going to be limited and pre-determined.

Another thing I'm ambivalent towards just yet are the "encounters". I think these are new for this year's version and are basically matches played against a computer foe that plays in a precise pattern. You'll need to find a way to defeat that pattern by playing around it. I think this mode would be cooler if the computer weren't playing decks that are literally all the same of one to three different cards (depending on the encounter.) For instance, one early encounter has the computer playing the same discard card over and over again, and on the fourth turn will play a card that puts a creature from the discard pile into play. That wouldn'tMagic DotPW 2013 Screen 2 be so bad if the computer weren't "cheating" by playing 20 of the same card in its deck. Still, working your way through some of them is enjoyably challenging even if some others will have you wanting to fling your controller at the screen.

The new Planechase multi-player mode is a riot. Planechase is what old-school players called "Chaos Magic", where over-arching random effects would impact the game at various points. Now, this is done through the use of oversized Planar cards that show the world you're in currently, each with their own rules. On your turn if you're not happy with the current world you can roll the Planar die to try and escape, or possibly trigger that Plane's powerful effect--including one that allows you to summon a free 7/7 monster (that's BIG for the unitiated!) It's giggly, random fun that turns the game on its ear and is always good for a laugh.

For purchasers of the game, depending on your platform you can print out a voucher that you can take to your local game store and get a free promotional pack, complete with a Mythic Rare depending on which system you have. Mine's the PS3 so I received a pretty awesome Vampire lord who pumps up all your Vamps for mega damage. He's fetching almost ten bucks on several sites I've seen, so you could basically buy the game, redeem the pack, and post it online for sale and reap most of your money back.

Feed your cardboard crack addiction the virtual way, for a comparitive pittance. Can't beat that. Definitely good times. I'd like to see more deck customization options next year, and for them to take the interesting encounter idea and tweak it some more so it isn't the computer throwing the same card or two at you over and over again. But otherwise I have no complaints--if you dig Magic at all, head over to your favorite game system's online store and check it out.


Reign Upon the Death of Twilight

Abaddon Box CoverLike 'mechs? Like 'splosions? Like Richard Borg's Command & Colors? I sure as hell do, so I was pretty excited to try out the newest Borg game Abaddon from Toy Vault.

First up is the components--holy crap, this was the first time in awhile I'd been wowed by the amount of plastic in a box. Big, chunky mechs basically come pouring out of the box. You also get over 100 cards and lots of little cardboard chits for tracking various things such as health and status effects.

Each player picks a side and a color, and takes all of those colored crystals. Then, just like most C&C games, you flip to a scenario and set up the battlefield accordingly. Dish out a number of cards as specified, and you're off.

One major difference with this iteration of the system is that instead of having cards that activate troops, you instead use dice (that you need to sticker when you first get the game.) Each facing of the die will have either one of the four different types of units, the Command icon, or a Weapons System icon. The different unit faces allow you to activate that type of unit--you know the drill, move n' shoot. The Weapons System gives you access to a Weapons System card draw, and these are cards you'll need to attack and defend at range. The Command icon is basically a wild card, allowing you to activate any unit you choose, draw a Weapons System card, or use a handful of cards that require the Command die to play.

To attack at range, two things that are definitely different are the need for a Weapons System card, and that you draw line of sight only in straight lines. Yes, I think that's weird too. Once you've attacked though, the defender may also play a Weapons System card in defense. The cards are revealed, and the die that cooresponds to each unit is rolled and added to the value of the card they played. Highest value dishes out damage; double the other unit's total and you'll deal out an additional wound.

Wounds are tracked with small cardboard crystals that stick in the base of each unit, and these serve the double purpose of helping players track which units are theirs--all mechs with red crystal tokens will belong to one player, for example. When dealing damage, you take the tokens from the damage you dished out and stick them in your small cup that looks vaguely like a urine sample container. This is to keep score for scenarios that require it.

That's the core of the system, essentially. You have cards that don't require line-of-sight such as calling in Smart Bombs, and the scenarios and set-ups do vary the experience from game to game.

So let's talk the good first. This is your prototypical AT game, with awesome plastic mechs blasting each other, players slapping down cards with special abilities, rolling dice. It's all here. The action is fast and furious, and the game system itself promotes aggression.

I've read some complaints that the game is too simple for its price, even one person I read online saying its "simpler than Memoir '44." I don't know what version of Memoir '44 they have, but it's clearly different than mine, at least in terms of good ol' vanilla base game Memoir.  Sure, the expansions for Memoir have added to the game tremendously, but you factor those in and the price comparison is much different too.  The fact that units can battle back makes it feel much less like a moving shooting gallery and more like an interactive battle.Abaddon Lg  Don't get me wrong, I still really like Memoir but Abaddon has several things that compare favorably to the old favorite

The pieces are chunky and nice and beg to be painted by someone far more talented than I. The terrain is a little weird in that each terrain piece is made up of two interlocking cardboard pieces, forming an "X". It does give the board more of a 3-dimensional appearance.

There are sixteen scenarios in the book and the later ones do shake up the gameplay quite a bit. That's always been the strength of many of the Command & Colors games, and that's no different here. The dice activation for me is a plus, as gone completely is the gamey "Right Flank/Left Flank/Middle" activation system. Also, though the dice are random, it's not as easy to find yourself at a loss for things to do, nor get a hand gummed up with cards you can't use efficiently.

That leads me to one of the best parts of the game in how it promotes combined arms, something that a lot of games simply don't do very well. To maximize your activations, you'll need to preserve all your different units. Treat your Infantry like cannon fodder, and sure enough you'll have a turn where you'll roll three Infantry activations with no one to spend them on. The other cool part is that if a unit rolls a "1" in combat, the results of the combat are cancelled and the opposing player draws a "Wild Fire" card. Most of these are malfunctions that can deal damage, make units harder to activate, and so on. Taking a page from the game "Battleball", weaker units roll smaller dice but as such are more likely to cause Wild Fire effects. Also, units that are at close range with an enemy unit aren't allowed to play Weapons System cards against long-range attacks. The combination of these encourages tactics such as moving your Infantry in, tying up the enemy, hopefully causing a little systems havoc with Wild Fire, then while they're tied up your heavy hitters move in and tear them to shreds. Every unit has a chance to shine here, and I really like that, unlike Memoir where once you introduce the Tanks, it seemingly becomes all about the Tanks.

Now for a few negatives. There's no getting around the fact that this sucker carries a high price tag--$80 MSRP. Fact is though the game has a ton of plastic in it, and that costs money these days. Still, I can sympathize with the notion that the game is on the lighter side for that price point.

Personally, the "straight line" firing is also strange to me--it's jarring to be up one square and off another, in plain sight of an enemy, and being unable to shoot them. It's jarring and takes you out of the game, abstracting things into a more chess-like positioning battle.

So Abaddon is pricey, and there are some gamey elements here to replace some of the gaminess that was taken out of the system in other ways. However, if you get past that what you're left with is a fun, light take on the C&C system that has some pretty clever stuff going on under the hood that help the tactics-minded player find a little more depth inside than expected.

I'd like to see better terrain, new units, and even more varied Weapons System cards, so we'll have to see what an expansion holds. I like what the game has to offer, even if I'm not "OMG BLOWN AWAY GAME OF THE YEAR" with it. It has some quirks but is indeed some good shoot 'em up fun.  As my younger sons grow into teenagers, it's very likely a good choice for spending an afternoon making things 'splode real good.


Another column in the books, thanks for reading.  So until George Romero and Stan Lee realize they're actually brothers separated at birth, I'll see ya in seven.

Lee-Romero

 

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Comments (35)
  • avatarRliyen

    Re: removing the mask.
    Word.

    FUCKING. STOP. IT.

    Thank you.

  • avatarlj1983

    holy shit yeah. I didn't think Raimi's movies did it nearly as often. at least not the first one.

  • avatarShellhead

    The mask is a fundamental problem for superhero movies. The mask completes the costume, at least for most heroes. But the actor wants to take the mask off because he wants to be seen. And the director wants him to take the mask off, so he can get some facial expressions. I first noticed this problem with Judge Dredd, when Stallone kept taking his helmet off. It was a damn shame, because when Stallone had the helmet on, he looked so much like Judge Dredd that it was spooky. Karl Urban has promised to keep the helmet on in the upcoming Judge Dredd movie, because Karl Urban is a cool dude.

  • avatarSagrilarus

    You see it in other films as well. Whenever they show paintball scenes on TV shows the guys take their masks off which would get them banned pretty much everywhere, but it's tough to act with no face in the mix. Space men take their helmets off awfully quickly when they're standing in a ship hulk filled with holes and noxious gasses shooting out of pipes. "Hang on! I think we can breathe in here! Let's take all our masks off at once!"

    Downey gets a break playing Iron Man because the comics have that JARVIS thing going on where they show his face inside the interface. That must be some pretty awful days of shooting though -- hold your head still and try to look intense when you're standing in a sound room looking at walls.

    It's good to see somebody finally got a review of Abaddon up.

    S.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    ARGH!!!!! Sag, I hate you!!!!

    I don't get Iron Man's "inside the mask" view. It's a form-fitting face mask and helmet. There's no room for all those displays and head movement.

    Anyway, the mask thing goes back at least to RoboCop. Remember how awesome RoboCop looked with that badass helmet on? But it's on for like five minutes, and then we see damn Peter Weller's face for the rest of the movie.

    Even in the Nolan Batman films this happens...there's plenty of face time with Christian Bale. You've got to have Bruce Wayne in a tuxedo at some point, you know. But wisely, there's never a sense where he rips the mask off to kiss a girl or whatever. It would be funny if he did and was still talking in that gravely voice though.

  • avatarJeff White

    I'm in the camp that thinks the Raimi films are fine and not interested in seeing this one till maybe at home. I'm not sure if the new film will have any cultural impact either as it's so early, but that upside down kiss in the rain scene from the first spidey film seemed to make the rounds pretty much right away. Well, I felt like I saw it, or a parody of it, everywhere.

    I also thought the Green Goblin/Norman Osborn had a lot of great lines in the first one. How's the Lizard compare?

    V for Vendetta kept V's mask on the whole time if I recall. Does that count?

    I'd like to see a proper review of Infiltration at some point.

  • avatarJMcL63  - Spider-Man love and more on unmasking supes in mov

    Spider-Man has long been one of my favourite superheroes, and I really loved the first movie. It was seeing the webslinger in action that did it for me: it was just so-oo right! Plus, I thought that movie was the first truly successful superhero comics-to-movie cross-media adaption: a double landmark then.

    Unmasking superheroes- whether by choice or not, is also a canonical part of the genre. It has to be: if the S.ID was never threatened or compromised then it would be a meaningless schtick instead of a source of tension and drama. The thing about superhero movies is that they just have to compress into 1 or maybe 2 movies what might've been years of comics. This is why I was OK with the unmasking in the original series of Spider-Man movies: it was a necessary consequence of the cross-media adaption.

    Jeff's comment about V for Vendetta is quite apposite here: the original comic wasn't a superhero comic; and V is never unmasked in the comic. Remaining masked to protect the S.ID and the inevitable unmasking therefore wasn't a feature of the comics, so it was quite appropriate for V to remain masked in the movie.

    EDIT. Of course, I may have missed the point completely by talking about unmasking in terms of revealing the S.ID when everybody else was just talking about too much Peter Parker time.

  • avatarBlack Barney

    Yeah, I'm really digging the MAGIC 2013 game too. I don't like the Planeschase as much as you seem too. I think I'd like it in 1v1 but in 4-player, it's too nuts.

    The encounters are out-of-the-box magic duels. Computer is allowed to cheat but because he becomes predictable, it's supposed to make new players think, "gee, which deck could really pulverize this problem" and then adjust to it. It's great for teaching people the intracacies of Magic I think.

    Once you unlock all 40 cards for each deck, you basically can replace more than the entire original deck so your deck building options are much more advanced. It's the most customization yet for any of these Magic games. Lots of fun.

  • avatarShellhead

    JM, I suspect the complaint isn't just "too much Peter Parker time", but too much of actor wearing superhero costume but keeps taking off just the mask.

  • avatarJMcL63  - re:
    Shellhead wrote:
    JM, I suspect the complaint isn't just "too much Peter Parker time", but too much of actor wearing superhero costume but keeps taking off just the mask.


    Yeah, I didn't really think it was that. I was just wondering after my post if I'd missed the point. I'll be seeing the movie on Thursday anyway, so I'll know what I think then. Until then, my previous comment stands: a superhero movie just can't treat S.IDs with the same reverence as do the comics. The mask coming off sooner and more often is something that's there as much for the non comics-reading audience as it is for the actors; ie. it's part of the reality of the adpation, just like, eg. getting rid of the spandex in X-Men movies.

    Looking back to other examples earlier in the thread: Dredd is essentially like V- his helmet is not a disguise to conceal an S.ID, it's part of the character (so many other judges take their helmets off, remember?), which is why Stallone's depiction was anathema; Robocop taking his helmet off was also an expression of character- in this case of the human's victory over his programing.

  • avatarShellhead

    My other recurring problem with superhero movies is the heavy emphasis on origins. I have no immediate plans to see this new Spider-man movie because Spider-man doesn't even show up in the first hour of the movie. Directors and studios seem convinced that viewers are complete idiots who need everything spoonfed. By contrast, Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely recapped Superman's origin nicely in a single page of silent panels in All-Star Superman #1. A movie could do the same in about 60 seconds, but the studios are too cautious to even try that. Usually the best stories aren't the origin stories. Iron Man was around for more than a decade before either Demon in a Bottle or Armor Wars. Daredevil didn't even get more than a single great issue in his first decade. DC heroes had it even worse.

  • avatarStephen Avery

    With you on every count for Abbaddon. I liked it a lot for a light skimishy mech game. The critical hits are surprisingly fun and allow for some real upsets. I'll be frank, I thought the game was going to be too simplistic to be fun (yeah - that is coming from me so you problably thinking it about the scale of my pretty pony checkers.) But instead it is fast with some very clear risk/reward choices.

    This game is good. I like fightn'. This game is good.

    Steve"1 the short review"Avery

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    Ken deathknelled it: "I'd have like to have seen more units, terrain....well see what an expansion has in store. Fuck that, IMO. For 80$ that bitch should be loaded to the gills with awesome. 80$ is a couple of HS Master sets, and that's some serious awesome right there. And really, do we need another C&C game?

  • avatarJeff White  - re:
    Shellhead wrote:
    My other recurring problem with superhero movies is the heavy emphasis on origins.

    I don't know, I'd argue that origin stories are the only essential stories to a character. They explain the character's powers, how they got them, and why they're motivated to use them the way they do. Outside of those ingredients superheroes are all the same. It's their origins that set them apart.

    Besides that, like was pointed out, 90% of everything is crap. The only guaranteed non-crappy issue for any given character is their origin issue. After that it's just fighting.

    Every once in awhile you get a great epic, but few are actually truly tied to the character the way the Armour Wars and the Saga of Beta Ray Bill are. With little work Demon in a Bottle could be a Daredevil tale, Born Again a story about Frank Castle, and Kraven's Last Hunt could be a Batman saga (yeah, different companies, but you get the idea).

  • avatarSagrilarus  - re:
    Shellhead wrote:
    My other recurring problem with superhero movies is the heavy emphasis on origins.

    Amen brother. Hollywood seems to think we give a damn about the deep backgrounds and inner motivations of characters like the Incredible Hulk. It's the wrong venue for that kind of material.

    I don't want to know the inner turmoils and unresolved issues of the evil geniuses in my movies. Humanizing them turns the movie into a depression-fest where you're watching somebody tumble uncontrollably to tragedy. Save that for serious dramas. Action films should be like westerns where everyone wears a hat and you know where they stand based on it.

    S.

  • avatarChapel

    I have nothing to comment other that telling you thank you for putting that spiderman cartoon song in my head.

    LOOK OUT, HERE'S COMES A SPIDER-MANNnnnnn...

  • avatarShellhead

    Jeff, that's a good point about the origin issue, but it's not 100% solid. As John Byrne once pointed out during his Fantastic Four run (in an article in the Fantagraphics index to the Fantastic Four), their origin is hilariously bad.

    Okay, so there is this scientist who is obsessed with getting a manned rocket into space before the Soviets. All right. And he brings along his best friend, who is an experienced pilot and military veteran. Makes sense. And then he brings along his young girlfiend and her kid brother? What, really?

    So their ship is engulfed by cosmic rays, which is easily penetrate the unshielded hull. I can handwave that in, because so many silver age origins of the day involved radiation. But they somehow manage to land safely even though their pilot is suddenly getting really heavy and laying on top of the control panel. And after they land, when the teenage kid gets really hot and bursts into flame, does he stop, drop and roll to put out the flames? No, he somehow intuits that he should leap into the air and start flying. Meanwhile the heavy pilot has turned into a monstrosity and is freaking out. So he calms down after being grappled by the guy who is responsible for this whole mess? Why?

    I really like the Fantastic Four, but I skipped their movies for two reasons. First, I skip a lot of superhero movies, because I am usually disappointed by the ones that I've seen. And second, I was dreading the sight of the FF origin story on the big screen, especially if it was going to take up half the movie. So I don't even know this: was the FF origin in the movie just as hokey as the one in Fantastic Four #1?

    Anyway, that isn't the only weak origin story by far. Thor's origin starts out complicated right away, with that whole weird business involving Donald Blake. Superman's origin lacks drama, because he already has super-powers as a baby, and his entire teen years were easily converted to a lousy prime-time soap opera. The X-Men didn't really have a proper origin story, they were just born with latent mutations that expressed themselves after puberty. X-Men First Class was a nice retcon, but came a few decades after their actual debut.

  • avatarSan Il Defanso  - re:
    Chapel wrote:
    I have nothing to comment other that telling you thank you for putting that spiderman cartoon song in my head.

    LOOK OUT, HERE'S COMES A SPIDER-MANNnnnnn...

    For a while, my son wanted us to sing this song to him before he went to bed.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    My 3 year old watches the old Spider Man show with the circular "Marvel Stamp" and that old-ass song. And she wants to be Firestar for Halloween.

    And in all of this, I remember one thing:

    F:AT used to be about board games. LOL

  • avatarKen B.

    Great feedback, sorry I'm just getting a chance to respond to it all.

    1. Re: Masks--I suppose it's a different medium, but a secret identity is precisely that. If they don't try to protect it (buy taking off the damned mask in front of everyone), then the whole notion of them wearing a mask becomes even sillier. Like I said, Raimi's films were eat up with this too so I can't slam this new one so hard.

    You know what I liked about Nolan's Batman movies as opposed to Burton/Schumacher's, though? In Nolan's, three people knew he was Batman--Alfred, Fox (who deduced it himself), and Rachel (his literal childhood sweetheart, who is dead now.)

    In Burton's, it's like "No one can know my identity. Except Alfred. And Vicky. And Selena. And Max Shreck. And Dick Grayson. And Chase Meridian. And Riddler. And Two-Face. And...."


    2. Lizard vs. Norman Osborne -- Dafoe went at the Goblin role with hammy apolomb...no such histrionics with the Lizard here. He only really has a couple of cool lines ("Why the sudden interest in the cold-blooded?") but Connors was always a sympathetic villain so it's not like they'd show him go completely over the edge.

    But no, he doesn't hold a candle to Raimi's Goblin...but we'll see their take on him soon enough, I'll wager.


    3. Barney--yeah, you've got a lot of cards to unlock, but it's not like you can suddenly say, "Y'know, I want this red deck to be a hardcore land destruction deck." You're stuck with each basic deck's paramaters, you're only twisting knobs in terms of the mana curve, mostly. It's my only real complaint but it's not one that a lot of more casual players would have. And damn, it is a lot of fun.

    4. Origin stories--amen to all that. I'm sick of 'em. It's why I was dreading a reboot...we just *had* a Spidey origin story a decade ago.

    It's why I enjoyed the Avengers so much; they shed the origins stories into other movies. It made them lesser films, but hot damn did it make Avengers scream. Brilliant planning, I'd say...big epic team movie, no origins, #3 domestic box office all time. Works for me.

    5. Pete--I'll dare say that they're giving you enough physical stuff in the box to justify the price tag. A lot of companies are charging similar prices and when you open it up you're lucky if ten small miniatures fall out sometimes. FFG is the only one still in the business giving out decent plastic with their games at 'reasonable' price points, and it's still in line with what Abaddon offers.

    Like Steve said, it's light. But as I've talked about, there are room for suprisingly deeper tactics--tying up units, using support units wisely, judicious use of cardplay, preserving your unit mix so you can ensure productive turns no matter what the dice do to you. It does a better job of promoting combined arms than any other light skirmish game I've ever seen, where one unit type tends to become the "star" and dominates the show.

    6. Jeff -- Hot damn, I've LOVE to see a "Kraven's Last Hunt" story involving Batman. Somebody needs to do a "What If?" crossover, immediately!

    7. Sag -- I agree with your statement about the "deeper motivations" but I think you picked the wrong example. Hulk is a story all about the personal's hero's tragedy. He became the Hulk because he nobly sacrificed himself to save his friend. Unlike Peter, or Bruce, or most other heroes, he can't "hang up the tights." He gets pissed or stressed, stuff gets BROKEN and people get SMASHED. His story is all about his personal pathos.

    Now that doesn't mean I need a movie where Nick Nolte screams and yells like an idiot madman, chews a power cable and then grows into...uh...a giant water bubble or whatever the fuck THAT was. Ang Lee's Hulk--the only movie in history that goes from completely shitty to freaking awesome if you trim off the last ten-fifteen minutes.


    8. Shellhead -- I think the origin of the FF was handled fairly well, honestly. But they proved by the second half of that movie and the entire sequel that no one involved had any other decent story to tell about them.

    And that's the biggest problem with superhero movies, and why they so often adhere to origin stories--because there are few scriptwriters in Hollywood that know how to write an honestly compelling story about superheroes. They go to the well of the origin story because it's already been done for them. It's lazy.

    That's why the best of them that don't get bogged down in origin stories and have a good story to tell are the most memorable...Superman II, Spider-Man 2, X-Men 2, The Dark Knight.

  • avatarJeff White

    I don't claim the origin stories were solid, I simply stand by the fact that they define the character(s) and are the most important tale to tell.

    Silly as it was, Sue, Johnny, and Ben had to be on the ship so they could have that shared experience and Marvel could bill them as the 'First Family' or whatever. If I recall FF was the first comic to portray a team of supers as having behavioural traits of a family (infighting, unconditional love, etc). The Thing and the torch had their 'sibling rivalry', Ben can blame Reed for his condition much like a child blames (right or wrong) a parent. All this is important to the FF mythos.

    Fighting the mole people is not. It's simply one adventure of many.

    Same with Thor. Sure it's complicated, but Donald Blake gives him the connection to Earth so that he can be a champion of both Earth and Asgard and the struggles that lie therein.

    It's important that the X-men are born with their powers, so the whole racism/sexism/-ism thing can be addressed. It's their whole point in being. The outsiders that society judges not based on their character but how they're born.

    I agree there can be better tales in a comic's canon, but they aren't essential to the character(s) like the origin.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    Have you played a lot of Heroscape? Because, personally, of all the skirmish games I've ever played, Heroscape has the best use of combined arms (bonding/buffing, leaders+squads) and, even when you just look at the two master sets, has like 60 or 70 minis that are all very unique in what they do and how they interact with one another. Either can be had for around 40-50$, new, still.

    I'm just saying that this isn't all that shit hot looking (or sounding) and for 80$ I could get Tide of Iron and an expansion used. That's a lot of money for something that doesn't sound or look any better than a 12 year old game.

  • avatarKen B.

    Of course I've played me some Heroscape. I've got a bucket of it just like everyone else. There's a map set up on my rec room table right now (D&D Master Set's first dungeon, I believe.)

    Heroscape was printed when plastic was cheap and pre-painted Chinese labor was also cheap. Landscape has changed by quite a grip since 2004. You need to compare it to stuff printed today.

    I'm not saying the game is perfect, at all. But there were reasonable clever things going on to write it off completely as being "too light".

    Heroscape is more Magic than combined arms; it's about finding the combination of units whose special abilities combo well with each other. It's splitting hairs but it's more finding the groove of combo'd powers than it is using the nature of the unit in terms of "realistic" (in a game involving mechs, lawls) battle situations.

  • avatarJeff White  - re:
    Ken B. wrote:

    6. Jeff -- Hot damn, I've LOVE to see a "Kraven's Last Hunt" story involving Batman. Somebody needs to do a "What If?" crossover, immediately!

    How would it be any different?

  • avatarShellhead

    Ken, it's unsettling to realize that Hollywood struggled and failed to find even two good stories to tell about the Fantastic Four. A big section of the foundation of the Marvel Universe was introduced in that comic, there should be something more that they could have used. Just to spew some random names of people and concepts introduced (or re-introduced) to silver age fans by the FF: Namor, Black Panther, Skrulls, Kree, Inhumans, Annhilus, Blastarr, the Negative Zone, the Microverse, the Frightful Four, Agatha Harkness, New Salem, Dragon Man, the Mad Thinker, etc.

    Jeff, your other big point about comic book movies is interesting. It's true that some of the best stories for certain characters could easily have worked with other characters. But I don't think that it's crucial for that kind of big story to be so focused on a specific hero that it couldn't work for somebody else, unless maybe that hero is unique like Thor. Most people will enjoy a good movie simply for being a good movie, and only the more obsessive comic fans might worry that a movie plot wasn't heavily tied into the very essence of a given hero.

  • avatarKen B.

    Shell--it's more damning of Hollywood than the richness of the FF, I assure you.

    However, this was before Marvel really seemed to take it's "movie universe" seriously. So the movie rights to FF are in the hands of lesser people. So you have a director like Tim Story (who? Oh yeah, he directed Taxi? Shit man, sign me up) in charge.

    Believe me, I'm willing to bet if Marvel could wrangle that back immediately, they would. Then you wouldn't have had that scientist dude in Thor/Avengers; you could've had Reed f'n Richards, crossing over from THEIR well-done Marvel movie that had preceded it.

    Or think if during the climax to Avengers, Spidey or the Fantastic Four had cameos. How cool would that have been?

    It's why I was worried if the Avengers had failed--we would've never seen that sort of ambitious type of universe-making happen, ever again, and we'd have gone back to Affleck Daredevils and Jane Thomas Punishers. But now that there is SERIOUS coin in superhero universes done with this much care and skill, I hope we see more of it.

    Pipe dream? Prolly. But a comic nerd can dream.

  • avatarJeff White

    I do agree about the FF movies. They should have been just as epic as the Avengers.

    Replace the Avengers fighting Loki and spacemen with The FF fighting a Namor led Atlantis. An army of Atlanteans attempting to reclaim earth is way cooler than spacemen mercenaries.

    Edit: I recall at one time Marvel wanted the FF to be the center of big epic adventure tales because the curious nature of Reed pushed the team into other-world dimensions, distant solar systems, etc. The Avengers were more 'Earth's Defense Force'. Seems Hollywood got the Avengers right. What did the FF do in their movie? Stop Doom from shooting a missile down the block?

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    That's the thing that's pissing me off about this whole "plastic is more expensive" lie that's been circulating...it's not. We're paying less now for plastics than we did 5 years ago. Oil is at the same price it was in early 2007 before the dollar got murdered by overspending. Commodities are dropping like flies now that Europe is dying a death of 1,000 knives.

    But the real thing is that the Yuan is tied to the dollar and the Chinese labor market isn't much higher than it was 5 years ago, so really, plastic and commodities are the exact same as they were 5 years ago.

    It's a myth propgated to justify higher prices. Fuck that noise, pricing is the same on all the components of making resins.

  • avatarKen B.

    Jeff--they also saved that Ferris Wheel from falling into the water. Yep, seriously, that was one of their big action pieces from Rise of the Silver Surfer. Man, what a terrible, terrible movie.

  • avatarJMcL63  - re:
    Ken B. wrote:
    Jeff--they also saved that Ferris Wheel from falling into the water. Yep, seriously, that was one of their big action pieces from Rise of the Silver Surfer. Man, what a terrible, terrible movie.


    I fell asleep, and I didn't feel that I'd missed anything worth bothering about.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    Anything would be better than Thomas Jane Punisher....except Dolph Lundgren Punisher.

    U-GH.

  • avatarKen B.

    Hahaha...from time to time, I'm still apt to break out into Louis Gossett's yelling at the end of Dolph's Punisher...."FRRRANNNNNK! FRRRRAAAAANNNNKKKK!"

    And since when did Punisher make a habit of kneeling naked in the sewers at a shrine to his family? That was probably Dolph going, "I'd love to get my bare ass on screen, let's make that happen."

  • avatarSpace Ghost

    I love that Dolph has a graduate degree in chemical engineering

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    He's an incredible chemist, specifically regarding phosphors. He actually the inventor of the predecessor to Rophynol (Roofies), that doesn't require ingestion, only sitting and looking at a screen.

    This chemical, "Lundgrenite" that is emitted by all televisions and big screens when he's on them. While under the influence of this compound, you can't really point your finger at a memorable scene, line, or really, anything substantial about the film being shown. Afterward, you feel violated in some strange emotional way, as if something had mentally sapped you. If seen on the big screen, an immense sense of loss follows, along with the realization that you're no longer in possession of as much money as you had when you entered the building, and you have nothing to show for it.

    Apparently Ken is immune to its effects from large amounts of drug use in his youth as he remembered a naked Dolph. Or maybe.... LOL

  • avatarNotahandle

    "Or maybe...."
    Or maybe Barney looks like Dolph from the rear...

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