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dullF:AT looks back at the state of fantasy, adventure games (this article was originally published March 9, 2009).

Fantasy role-playing games have an irresistible, almost fatal attraction for me. It stems from my childhood exposure to Tolkien, I have no doubt and fantasy role-playing was where I started my exposure to hobby games in general, and remained the focus of my hobby time for many years. I delight in the mythic quality of the settings, the feeling of magic and mystery that pervades (as contrasted to cold, mechanical science fiction), the evocation of a world which parallels our own history in medieval Europe, and in the plots of both high and low fantasy. So you might think it natural that now I consider myself primarily a board gamer, I’d be all over adventure boardgames like a rash. Yet I have played remarkably few, and am interested in trying even fewer.

 

I probably ought to start out by explaining why it is I stopped playing role-playing games and moved on instead to fantasy wargames which in turn provided my introduction to board games. There were two factors at work. Firstly and most importantly I’d known from long experience that actually playing in an RPG campaign rarely matched with how I’d imagined it would be. I would read reports of adventures in places like Dragon and White Dwarf, played by groups of people who were obviously professionally involved in the hobby and thrill to the depth of character and plot that they managed to generate. I might buy and read a module and get carried away imagining how exciting it would be to run a party of adventurers through the dungeon. But in reality what usually happened was that at best we’d end up playing a two-dimensional Monty Haul game or at worst, someone in the game would get into a huff over a rules interpretation and the session would be ruined. The second thing was my exposure to a new set of gamers when I went to university. One was a superb games master who showed me how vital it was to have a skilled GM to breath life and pathos into the games. Others were a random group of players I drafted into my own campaign, and over the course of three years and many adventures we became good friends away from the confines of the game and the interactions of the players virtually ran the campaign on its own - my adventures and plots became superfluous as much of the intrigue and excitement unfolded from the relationships and frictions that arose between the characters. After university I gathered together another couple of ill-fated groups in my local area and found myself back in monty haul territory again. I’d learned two things - firstly that to make an RPG work you need a group of socially skilled players who have relationships outside the game and second that the majority of RPG players completely lacked the social graces required to participate in a fun game. So I moved on.

But of course I can’t just move on from the deep-seated fascination I had with the actual trappings of fantasy. And I found, to my considerably surprise, that playing fantasy wargames actually pushed my buttons in a far more satisfying way than I’d through they could. Even though nearly all the games I played were isolated one-on-one matches, I was able to imagine a framework of character and plot for my exploits on the battlefield which required no input at all from the opposing player. So they were mine, and unsullied by unfortunate interactions with other players which is what ruined so many good role-playing sessions. My fellow wargamers thought it quite bizarre that I went to the lengths of naming all my character models and regiments and writing pen-pic histories for each of them and for the army as a whole. But it added a whole new dimension to the game for me, and I loved it.

But I can’t recreate that feeling in a board game. There are many reasons why not: for starters, most adventure board games simply don’t have the creative equivalent of building up an army from a wide selection of choices and possibilities. Board games lend themselves better to different strategies actually employed in play rather than beforehand, employed in building a force. With wargames I played no more than three rules systems over the space of several years whereas in board games there are many titles competing for your attention, which limits the amount of time you can lavish on creating a background or a setting for your games. Most boardgame companies simply don’t put the effort of developing a back story for their games in the same way as Games Workshop can for Warhammer because, again, they have too many titles competing for attention. In truth, once you’ve run through this gauntlet of problems there are still one or two board games I can think of that might fit the bill. And besides, board games offer other advantages over wargames for me, otherwise I wouldn’t have made the switch.  But even allowing for that, I keep on coming up against the same issues in fantasy board games time and time again. And each time I get fed up and back off again, to the point where I hardly even bother looking at new releases in the genre any more.

I can’t think of a better way of running through these problems than simply listing them. Not all are applicable to all games but, it seems, at least one - often more - always is, and they’re all deal breakers for me. Firstly it seems quite common for these sorts of games to run absurdly long play times which might be fine for one off games but which makes it impossible for people without a ton of spare time to link games together into a more pleasing fantasy narrative. They also have a tendency to be complicated which isn’t something I usually object to in a game but which in this case makes you wonder why you don’t just run an actual role-playing session instead of a board game. I crave competition in games and these sorts of games often have heavy co-operative elements. I also like games to have heavy doses of player interaction and even those games in this genre which are directly competitive are frequently dressed-up race games in which interaction is done down. Finally it seems to be quite common for the design and mechanics of these games to heavily play up the story and role-playing elements at the expense of good strategy and meaningful choice.

I’ve been through so many of these games and found each to be wanting in one or more departments that it’d be pointless to go through them all. I’ll take a moment to torpedo some of the more obvious choices that have been suggested to me. Descent does, in fairness, tick most boxes, but it takes far, far too long. Runebound lacks interaction as well as being long. Return of the Heroes, which looked very promising at first, eventually went down because of the low interaction and the rather laughable high-fantasy setting (an “epic quest” involving buying candles? Please!). World of Warcraft went out of its way to do something about the interaction problem and ended up making a mess of virtually every other aspect of the game mechanics. Warhammer Quest isn’t competitive enough. It’s enough to put you off the things for life.

What I find completely bizarre about this whole thing is that to me there seem to me be a number of ways in which designers could escape from these dead ends, and yet every new title that comes out falls prey to them all over again. The reason, I suspect, is that the biggest market for games of these kinds are frustrated role-players. And so they expect and forgive things like complexity, long play time and low interaction/competitiveness because those are near-universal tropes of the role-playing genre that the board games are trying to ape. But however they try, they’re not role playing games but board games, and each offers its own play experience and advantages and disadvantages. So why keep on trying to drag the role-playing experience on to a board which seems to bring with it many of the worst aspects of both types of games when one could instead be trying to emphasize the advantages that playing on a board can offer? Shorter rules and play times because less mechanical eventualities need to be covered. A better choice of in-play strategy and tactics instead of solving everything with a combination of dice and imagination. The opportunity to play a heated, thrilling, competitive game instead of a co-operative one?

I have no other answers to this one, and I know of nothing on the horizon in the adventure game market that seems to have the capacity to break out of these self-imposed bonds. The nearest thing that we’ve come, so far, are wargames in which characters play a heavy role - the old, but still good Dragon Pass, the newer and highly lauded War of the Ring and potentially the still new and shiny Age of Conan. Indeed I suspect that part of the reason behind the success of War of the Ring and the high expectations of Age of Conan is precisely that they’ve managed to come the closest yet to the careful balancing act between the demands of board and role. The only pure-bred adventure game in the works that seems to have any promise about it is the reprint of Tales of the Arabian Knights a game about which in truth I know very little, but which I’m keeping an eye on purely out of respect for it as something different, which doesn’t follow the typical mechanics dictates of the genre. But we can do better. I know we can. And if ever I pull my finger out and get round to trying to design a game of my very own, solving the riddle of the dungeons of dullness is going to be my number one priority.

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Comments (46)
  • avatarCitadel

    This matches a lot of my feelings about fantasy adventure board games. I think Descent is the best I've tried but it is too fidly and bogs down in the working out where to stand to stop monsters spawning or to get out of range of a template or line of sight. It would be nice if combat did not rely so much on the hexes. Just different areas being a box on the board and then things described would shave the setup and playtime right down. You can still have interesting combat within that - look at Starcraft or CCGs.

    I have played some recent RPGs that get over the problems of preparation and need for an encylopedic knowledge of the rules that stop a lot of people role playing. The best of them that I have played is Inspectres (Momento Mori). You still need players with imagination and the desire to roleplay. I am sure there must be some great middle ground between a game like that and an RPG like board game.

  • avatarShellhead

    I've tried a lot of the dungeon crawl-style boardgames, and I agree that they generally miss the mark. And the usual problems are indeed overly long playtime and unnecessary complexity, much like you would find in a typical tabletop rpg game. I suspect part of the problem is that game designers try to hard to simulate the leveling-up that role-players associate so strongly with the adventuring, when a boardgame might be better off focusing on the experience of a single rpg session, or a single dungeon, and skip the leveling up. Let the more useful loot serve as a way for the adventurers to become more powerful.

    There are two dungeon crawls that I think do a decent job of avoiding the usual mistakes, though neither game is perfect.

    1. Mertwig's Maze. I admit, I haven't played this in a long time. I loaned my copy out and got it back in very messy shape just before an unstable period in my life where I moved three times in 12 months. So I've been dreading sorting out the pieces to see if anything is lost.

    But from what I remember, Mertwig's Maze was a fun game where each player recruited a party of adventurers and then crossed a wilderness to explore various dungeons. As a Tom Wham game, it had the usual funny artwork and whimsical names, so it wasn't the serious game that most rpg'ers might want. The dungeons were basically colorful flowcharts, but the combat system was just good enough to make the battles between rival parties of adventurers interesting. Only took about two hours to play and had decent replay value. It would be easy to create new dungeons to use in place of the existing ones.

    2. Dungeon Twister. I've only played three games, and I've lost every time to opponents who prefer EuroGames, so I suspect that Dungeon Twister is a hybrid with some strong Euro elements. But it has nice, clean rules, and the game delivers the basics: explore the dungeon, engage in combat, acquire loot and escape. Despite the nice components, it doesn't quite have the right feel, probably due to the complete lack of random elements. So it's possible that I might lose interest after a few more games.

  • avatarTDawg

    I agree about your assessment of wargames (miniatures) capturing that imaginative spirit. I absolutely loved Dogs of War (Confrontation expansion) where you started with a small group of warriors (1-6 models) and set them against other models and then spent xp earned in battle (by each model no less) to improve stats or gain special abilities. We often named each figure and would mock each other when a figure was knocked out (when models were killed, it did not necessarily mean that you had to start from scratch again--medics, clerics and the like). Plus there were stories of the lone figure holding off a better opponent (and surviving!) or achieving a scenario success by himself. The scenarios were not about just wiping out the other side--there were objectives like protecting/killing a specific figure, capturing treasure chests, breakthroughs and the like. Good stuff.

    I have Hybrid (which is also in Rackham's universe) and have heard good things about it. It actually has a board of weird laboratories where one player plays an investigative group trying to accomplish missions and the other plays the creatures of the lab and throws out event cards as well.
    I know they actually put together strings of scenarios to make campaigns for it. But alas I have yet to play it yet.

    T

  • avatarmaka

    I think it depends on what you want out of a boardgame. For example, most adventure games forget about the role play and just focus on characters fighting, getting treasure/xp/etc... But there are some games that bring RPing closer to the boardgame form while still allowing for creativity and getting in character. Check out Universalis. It's a good example of storytelling game that doesn't need previous preparation, can be played in one-off sessions (or in one long story divided in smaller sessions) and can accommodate different numbers of players.

    Anyway, the boardgame that best manages to give a sense of adventure, to me is Magic Realm. First. It doesn't use random events full of flavor text, so the actual story that develops as you play is not constrained by what the designers thought beforehand, but instead emerges through the player's actions in-game. It also creates a dynamic world with its own internal logic that feels quite alive. This logic lets you plan ahead to overcome the likely obstacles you'll find on your quest. The game is also very replayable thanks to the many ways its multiple elements can be combined making each game a different experience. But all this comes at a price: complexity.

    On the other end of the flavour-text scale you have full paragraph games which can also convey some of the RPG feel. I'd say check out the games by http://www.darkcitygames.com/ for an interesting mix of tactical combat and paragraph driven story games. The downside of course is the limited replayability...

  • avatarhancock.tom

    I've heard a lot of people go bananas for magic realm but some other folks say its more complicated than doing the taxes for a fortune 500 company.

    I am in the same boat with Matt, it is very rare for me to play a fantasy adventure game I find satisfying despite the fact that I love fantasy RPGs. It is more personal preference than anything.

  • avatarMr MOTO

    Gotta disagree with you on the Dungeon Twister take, Shellhead.

    As a huge FRPG fan I can honestly say DT is the first fantasy board game that I instantly despised and will never play again.

    Frankly I don't see how a board game could ever replicate an rpg session with a great GM and good players. Games like Talisman, Prophesy, and Return of the Heroes take the tactic of not trying to replicate the 'role' playing aspects and instead give a larger epic character quest, with all the pitfalls and amazing successes along the way (Return on the Heroes being by far the worst of the three imo). Those three emulate moreso stories found in a fantasy book for each character instead of the cooperative and group aspects of rpgs.

    Games like HeroQuest and Descent attempt to capture the 'roll' playing aspects found in rpgs (casting spells, fighting monsters, cooperative play, gaining experience).

    What kind of board game mechanic would reward 'role' playing? I don't see why someone would to try to reinvent the wheel to force a 'role' playing game onto/into a board. I've worked on many commercial rpg projects and have developed my own in my quest to create a set of rules that provide just enough structure to allow players to create any character they could imagine and have all powers, spells, skills, and abilities work with nearly the same mechanic but yet have distinct flavor and not require the mess that the rpg flag bearer inflicts upon people playing it. I'm frankly surprised that the most popular rpg, with its rules ugliness, hasn't fallen to any number of the superior systems that allow less emphasis on looking up crap in twelve tomes and instead free up people's imaginations.

    Someone may prove me wrong someday and show that a board game can really foster the best of 'role' playing as well. I hope they do, but I'm never really looking for that when I pick up a fantasy board game. Still, they remain my favorite type because every once in a blue moon, if only for a little bit, they spin some mean yarns though the events that happen to characters.

    I'm working on a fantasy board game project and it might be able to pull in some essence of 'role' but it wont be the typical dungeon crawl, in many ways it will be just the opposite.

  • avatarMr. Bistro

    I have lots of adventure games, but find myself chasing the one that satisfies on all fronts. One thing about Prophecy at least - it does eleminate the race feeling. By the time people are ready for the endgame there are enough artifacts to go around. What counts the most is how well you've developed your character.

  • avatarKingdaddy

    I share the same disappointment with RPG-esque boardgames, for many of the same reasons. Before jumping to the epic story level, with games like Dragon Pass and Age of Conan, I'd like to figure out why the dungeon crawl games are uniformly unsatisfying.

    Here are some patterns I've noticed:

    Slavish devotion to the RPG form is a mistake. If you throw in every aspect of the genre--attributes, experience, advancement, magic items, henchmen, etc. etc.--you get a long, complicated game.

    No one has discovered the right combination of fewer components. It's clear that something's missing from a lot of these games--and not because people can't possibly enjoy a dungeon crawl game without all the RPG trimmings.

    The magic combination is definitely possible. Space Hulk is a dungeon crawl, with a very tight focus, and a very clear theme. Why this formula has evaded the fantasy genre, I dunno.

    Also, love what you have to say about the fantasy miniature wargaming hobby. I'm not sure why boardgame designers haven't clued into the appeal of a "combat construction kit." Way back in the day, Melee and Wizard were fun little games in exactly that mold.

  • avatarmetalface13

    I love adventure games. The bulk of collection is probably adventure games. They hit the right spot for me. I'd say they are more akin to video game/PC RPGs than pen and paper RPGs.

    I really like Descent for its dungeon crawling experience and I think its tactical combat is really enjoyable. Even as the Overlord you don't have to put all the time and effort into preparing an adventure or campaign because it's all done for you. Instead you can focus your energies on the most effective ways to kill the heroes. You get to be a player not just a rules lawyer/NPC.

  • avatarmikoyan

    I think the best of the bunch that I've played is Mutant Chronicles, although the having to be the bad guys occasionally messes things up. We've been playing that lately and re-learning the rules.

  • Mr Skeletor

    Dominion is the greatest adventure game there is.

  • avatarMattDP
    Quote:
    Slavish devotion to the RPG form is a mistake. If you throw in every aspect of the genre--attributes, experience, advancement, magic items, henchmen, etc. etc.--you get a long, complicated game.

    Absolutely, and not just for the reasons you mentioned. Following RPG convention too closely ignores the painfully obvious fact that a boardgame is NOT AN RPG. I don't understand why more designers don't seem to get this - I can only assume they're bending to the cravings of the audience for these games.

    Quote:
    No one has discovered the right combination of fewer components. It's clear that something's missing from a lot of these games--and not because people can't possibly enjoy a dungeon crawl game without all the RPG trimmings.

    I tried to list in the article what *I* thought was required. But I think it's your previous point that explains why people keep missing the mark.

    Quote:
    The magic combination is definitely possible. Space Hulk is a dungeon crawl, with a very tight focus, and a very clear theme. Why this formula has evaded the fantasy genre, I dunno.

    Very perceptive observation, and I think this rather proves my point. Space Hulk is first and foremost a boardgame, was planned as a boardgame and has been executed as a boardgame. Its similarities with the Dungeoncrawl genre are purely co-incidental but it still demonstrates how one might go about making a dungeon game starting from a boardgame point of view instead of an RPG point of view. Dungeonquest manages something similar.

    Quote:
    Also, love what you have to say about the fantasy miniature wargaming hobby. I'm not sure why boardgame designers haven't clued into the appeal of a "combat construction kit." Way back in the day, Melee and Wizard were fun little games in exactly that mold.

    There's still some of it about - see Battlelore and Heroscape - but it's still a tragically underused mechanic.

  • avatarmjl1783
    Quote:
    Slavish devotion to the RPG form is a mistake. If you throw in every aspect of the genre--attributes, experience, advancement, magic items, henchmen, etc. etc.--you get a long, complicated game.

    Can anyone name a single dungeon crawl that's as long and complicated as War of the Ring, or Warhammer?

  • avatarMattDP
    Quote:
    Can anyone name a single dungeon crawl that's as long and complicated as War of the Ring, or Warhammer?

    You don't really need to - the point is that people keep trying to shove all this stuff in and the result is a game which is bloated beyond the level of interest it can sustain.

    As an aside, on the copy of this article over at BGN someone mentioned an upcoming Middle-Earth adventure game from FFG called Middle-Earth Quest. Anyone know anything about this? Information seems pretty scarce.

  • avatarColumbob
    Quote:
    Can anyone name a single dungeon crawl that's as long and complicated as War of the Ring, or Warhammer?

    Warhammer? Warhammer's not really long. A standard game (roughly 2K points a side) usually takes 90-120 minutes for a couple of veterans of the game to set up, play, and pack up.

  • avatarShellhead

    Asteroid is another good science-fiction dungeon crawl, though it runs about three hours. The game has a nice, clean combat system, and every character has minimal stats: movement rate, hit close, hit far, melee and maybe one special ability.

    And yet the game has a strong narrative. The bad guy is a demented AI hidden inside an robot-operated asteroid base that is now on a collision course with Earth. The good guys are a rag-tag group of heroes who invade the asteroid base to find the AI and destroy it. Games often end with the heroes racing to escape during the base's self-destruct countdown. There is a potential subplot involving the professor's daughter falling in love with one of the other heroes, and another involving a Lassie-type dog and a guy who hates dogs.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    You guys should check out DORN. It's Czech, and I think it's a pretty neat dungeon crawl game. And it's not a fake one like DUNGEON TWISTER.

    It runs about an hour and it has most of the earmarks of a good quest game. Player characters, a simple levelling mechanic, unique player powers, treasures, etc. There's no dice in combat so it is a little deterministic and it's very much about coordinating moves and placement to kill monsters, but I think it does a lot of the same things that DESCENT does in a very, very small package. While we were playing, we all thought "Hey, this is just like the kinds of conversations we have in DESCENT but without 50,000 cards and chits". It's a one-against-everybody else game, too.

    I think it's a pretty good game. It is limited in scope (I think there's only like five monsters) and there's the potential for end game weirdness but it sort of addresses many of the problems raised here.

  • avatarShellhead

    So what are the minimum elements required to make a boardgame dungeon crawl?

    1. Dungeon to explore. Optionally, it could be a wilderness trek, or some other type of building to explore, like a castle or even a haunted house.

    2. Party of adventurers, ideally one character per player.

    3. Characteristics that distinguish one adventurer from another. Different abilities, different ratings in stats, maybe different weapons, armor and other equipment. Possibly some characters have spells or other magic to wield.

    4. Opposition in the form of monsters and/or traps.

    5. Loot, both treasure and useful items.

    6. Combat, ideally with some tactical aspect.

    Is that pretty much it? What games have the best implementation of each item on that list?

    1. Betrayal at House on the Hill. I know that it isn't traditionally considered a dungeon crawl, but I love exploring the house each game. The ratio of 1 tile = 1 room seems just right to me.

    2. Plenty of games give you a party with one character per player. Descent, for example.

    3. Arkham Horror. Again, not the stereotypical Tolkienesque dungeon crawl, but each character has different starting gear, a special ability or two, and some minimal attributes (Sanity, Health, and Focus). There are some other attributes that can be adjusted throughout play.

    4. Plenty of games have monsters in the dungeon. Which ones do a good job with traps? I think that a good trap should be already in place, not just randomly showing up, and there should be a chance to beat the trap, based on a skill or a spell, or an attribute contest.

    5. Lots of games have loot. This is pretty easy to implement.

    6. A lot of games fail on combat. Either it's too abstract, like in Tomb, or too detailed, like in Descent. Personally, I love the combat system in Kung Fu 2100, where opponents play face down chits in order before combat starts, then resolve them back and forth. It ends up being a die roll based on a scissor-paper-rock contest, but an defense potentially leads directly to the next attack, allowing canny players to set up bluffs and combination attacks.

  • avatarmoofrank

    I know someone who played Dorn about 6 or 7 times. After the second time, he said the game got kind of samey because the pool of cards was so very tiny.

    I'm so up for playing it at least a couple of more times. It really does remind me a lot of Descent Road to Legend with sub bosses and a final boss. The all against one model also gives it a slightly more wargamey feel.

    There are two oddities I have that do...weird things to the Adventure game.

    Wizards by AH is like a paler Magic Realm with some New Agey oddness and tons of tables. Lots and lots of random tables.

    Mamoonia by some Italians is a clone of the above Wizards with bits from Talisman. Replaces a lot of the tables with card decks.

    Problem is, I haven't been brave enough to drag them to the table. Has anyone?

  • avatarmjl1783
    Quote:
    Warhammer? Warhammer's not really long. A standard game (roughly 2K points a side) usually takes 90-120 minutes for a couple of veterans of the game to set up, play, and pack up.

    Warhammer has more complexity than most dungeon crawl, not a lot more, but more. With the possible exception of Descent, most dungeon crawls fit into that play time as well.

    Quote:
    You don't really need to - the point is that people keep trying to shove all this stuff in and the result is a game which is bloated beyond the level of interest it can sustain.

    If we're going to pull out our Professor Boardgame brand monacles and moustaches and start having an academic discussion about the failures of an entire gaming genre, then yes, somebody needs to come up with at least one game that fits the "too long/complex" criticism.

    Quote:
    You guys should check out DORN. It's Czech, and I think it's a pretty neat dungeon crawl game. And it's not a fake one like DUNGEON TWISTER.

    I've been wanting to try Dorn for quite a while, I didn't know the English version was out yet. I don't see how anyone can see the word "Twister" in a game's title and actually think that it's trying to pass itself off as a surrious bizniss dungeon crawl. It's no more a fake than Wiz-War, or Drakon.

    Quote:
    6. A lot of games fail on combat. Either it's too abstract, like in Tomb, or too detailed, like in Descent.

    Since most dungeon crawls are helplessly dependent on combat to keep the "adventure" moving along, I'm inclined to think that this the the biggest problem with games of this ilk.

    I disagree that Descent's combat is too detailed. It's needlessly detailed. All those crazy cool CRT dice and "surge" combos look cool on the surface, but when you get right down to it, it's not much different than Heroscape's skull/shield thing no matter how many ability cards you throw at it.

  • avatarBullwinkle
    Quote:
    So what are the minimum elements required to make a boardgame dungeon crawl?...


    Runebound has all of the elements you cite in your list, and it executes those very well. Matt's article dismisses it as too long and having too little interaction, and those are valid points (though the first is only true if you play with too many players). For my money, it's the best adventure game when played solo, hitting the high points and not having any low ones. I particularly like its combat system. It's a nice light tactical system that forces different characters (and even the same characters with different items/allies) to fight differently.

  • avatarShellhead

    I despise the combat system in Runebound. It's really tedious. Repetitive, fiddly, and long.

  • avatarMad Dog

    I don't get the Runebound is too long or not interactive comments. The game plays in under 4 hours typically. For an RPG-ish board game I'd say that's about right. As for interactive, it seems the real complaint should be its not a co-op because characters interact in RPGs by cooperating not by attacking each other (well, not usually). So lack of interaction isn't a fault of the game because its not that type of game. I'd say its clearly based more on old-school single-player computer hack/slash RPGs than traditional pencil-paper RPGs or MMORPGs. The combat system is simple and at least as interesting as rolling a 20-sided die over and over, imo.

  • avatarShellhead

    Runebound doesn't have much interaction because most of the time, players are simply pre-occupied with their own turns, which are generally only distantly related to anything that the other players are doing in their turns.

    Interaction could have been vastly improved with a different combat system where an opponent controls the opposition in any given encounter. Otherwise, why not a combat system that can be resolved in just a couple of rolls, instead of this protracted and dry dicefest?

    4 hours is not necessarily too long for a game, but the hinderance of the movement dice probably accounts for at least one of those hours, and the boring and inefficient combat system accounts for another two hours.

  • avatarmetalface13

    I introduced my buddy to Arkham Horror a while back. He's played Descent lots of times. After playing Descent, he was pretty disappointed in how simplistic AH's combat is.

  • avatarShellhead

    I'm a big fan of Arkham Horror, but I can see why somebody would be dissatisfied with the combat system. However, a more detailed treatment of combat in AH would be wrong for the theme, because you're playing basically normal people who take it upon themselves to save the Earth from unspeakable horrors. When your character is getting torn up in a combat he probably can't win, and he's just hoping to sneak out of it, that's the right tone for a game based on Lovecraft's work. Better still are the encounters where you don't even get to the combat because you went insane first.

  • avatarBullwinkle
    Quote:
    ...the hinderance of the movement dice probably accounts for at least one of those hours...


    This one I don't get. I can see how watching others fight a combat in RB can get pretty dull, but there's no good reason that anyone needs to wait for the movement dice. If the next player to go rolls the dice and considers his movement during the previous player's turn (e.g. during the combat phase), only the most AP player would be holding up the game when it comes to their turn. It's really not that complicated.

    I do agree that there is very little interaction in a game of Runebound. That's why I said it's a great solo game. I certainly wouldn't want to play with more than three.

  • avatarMad Dog

    Otherwise, why not a combat system that can be resolved in just a couple of rolls, instead of this protracted and dry dicefest?

    I'm not sure what you mean. You only roll when damage or an effect can occur in Ranged, Melee, or Magic so on average you probably roll twice per round of combat. In many RPGs you roll once to see if you hit, then again to see how much damage per round of combat. So on average you roll twice per combat. Its not much different.

  • avatarMad Dog

    Fuck the lack of an edit function here.

  • avatarWalterman

    Matt-

    You might want to try Friedemann Friese's Formidable Foes. It has interaction, short play time, no co-operation, and there are meaningful choices.

    It isn't ideal for me because it is a little too Euro for my tastes. I tend to enjoy games with longer playing time (like Runebound), but it is an okay game.

  • avatarShellhead

    Mad Dog, I've only played Runebound once, but it was a really long game, so I do remember it. And I specifically remember combats where people were rolling in the Ranged phase, rolling in the Melee phase, and rolling in the Magic phase, sometimes for several turns in a row.

  • avatarMattDP
    Quote:
    If we're going to pull out our Professor Boardgame brand monacles and moustaches and start having an academic discussion about the failures of an entire gaming genre, then yes, somebody needs to come up with at least one game that fits the "too long/complex" criticism.

    Not everyone is dismissing it. The article listed the problems that I, personally find with these sorts of games. Other people seem to like them just fine - otherwise they wouldn't sell.

    That point is worth re-iterating for everyone who thinks I ought to try Runebound or Descent or anything else. I'm not saying they're bad games per se just not games for me.

    I still think it's a shame they're all designed from the point of view of an RPG being crammed into a boardgame though, instead of a boardgame that has one or two RPG trappings.

  • avatarmjl1783
    Quote:
    Not everyone is dismissing it. The article listed the problems that I, personally find with these sorts of games. Other people seem to like them just fine - otherwise they wouldn't sell.

    I realize all that, Matt, and as usual, I agree with your article for the most part. I just don't buy the long/complex angle for a minute. If War of the Ring isn't too long and complicated, then niether is Runebound. Now, if you were to say that Runebound is too long for what it is, then I would agree with you. I suppose that's what you meant when you said "bloated beyond the level of interest it can sustain."

    Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but I think that's saying two very different things because the latter goes back to your point about the story elements taking over for strategic choices. RB gives you almost no choices whatsoever. The game simply dictates what happens to your character and you get to watch. That's boring, and even one hour of this is going to feel like too much. Descent, for all it's percieved complexity, usually boils down to lots and lots of toe-to-toe dice pitching. I like to call it "Dungeon Yahtzee." Rolling your dice and counting your surges is fun for a bit, but it wears off quickly. To be fair to FFG, they did throw some simple puzzles into the quests here and there, but it's just not enough to make the game much more than a simple minis skirmish game.

    For me, I think the problem with a lot of these fantasy adventure board games is that there simply isn't much adventure or role playing in them. There are only so many situations that a game like Descent can depict, and only a handful of ways for the players to approach them. They force you to be a spectator to a "story" that plays itself out without your input.

  • avatarShellhead

    I'm not a fan of either Runebound or Descent, but at least Descent offers vaguely interesting tactical considerations involving movement and teamwork.

  • avatarBullwinkle
    Quote:
    RB gives you almost no choices whatsoever. The game simply dictates what happens to your character and you get to watch.


    I don't agree with this at all. I think RB sometimes gives the illusion of offering no choices because virtually none of the choices you make are major (in the sense that the game can completely turn on a single bad (or good) decision). But RB is a continual risk management game of minor choices: a sequence of bad choices will lose you the game, whereas a sequence of good choices will win you the game (probably; you still have the luck of the dice to contend with).

  • avatarJosh Look

    I enjoy my fair share of adventure games, but I don't think any of them can really come close to the level of storytelling an RPG offers. Since storytelling is what drives my RPG games, I can't even put something like RB or Descent in the running with my RPGs (even 4e).

  • avatargeneralpf

    For the past few weeks, I've been running a Heroquest for my son, wife and the in-laws, which is cool, because it's the same copy of Heroquest that my father-in-law ran for my wife and her brothers when they were my son's age. It's a blast, and it runs 60-90 minutes per adventure. We've even gone out and bought custom minis for the four adventurers. I think it meets all the criteria for a good dungeon crawl, except for the varied equipment, but Heroquest fan sites take care of that pretty well. I've played Descent and Runebound and neither comes close to the sheer fun per minute of Heroquest.

  • avatarmjl1783
    Quote:
    I'm not a fan of either Runebound or Descent, but at least Descent offers vaguely interesting tactical considerations involving movement and teamwork.

    It does, but if I want to play a tactical combat game, why not just play one that focuses strictly on tactical combat? Games like Nin-Gonost and Dracula's Revenge do this in a dungeon crawl format without wasting my time with all the half-assed RPG folderol. They're deeply flawed games, to be sure, but so is Descent.

    Quote:
    I don't agree with this at all. I think RB sometimes gives the illusion of offering no choices because virtually none of the choices you make are major (in the sense that the game can completely turn on a single bad (or good) decision). But RB is a continual risk management game of minor choices: a sequence of bad choices will lose you the game, whereas a sequence of good choices will win you the game (probably; you still have the luck of the dice to contend with).

    I said almost no choices. As far as I'm concerned, red quest vs. blue quest, or roll against body vs. roll against mind are not terribly interesting choices. I don't want to sound like an arrogant prick, but if you lose RB and luck didn't have a whole lot to do with it, you either suck at games or you're just plain dumb.

    Quote:
    For the past few weeks, I've been running a Heroquest for my son, wife and the in-laws, which is cool, because it's the same copy of Heroquest that my father-in-law ran for my wife and her brothers when they were my son's age. It's a blast, and it runs 60-90 minutes per adventure.

    It is a blast, isn't it? I haven't played HeroQuest in years, especially because when I was 10 I got Dragon Strike for Christmas and fell absolutely in love with it, so I tended to play HQ a little less after that. Back then, though, I played the living shit out of them. They had great bits, played fast, and had all the fun RPG elements a kid weaned on Final Fantasy could ask for.

    Now, I suppose Descent is a "superior" system because it's more balanced, with more tactical decisions and expandability. Still, I'm not convinced it's any more fun than the 60-minute "kick down the door, kill monsters grab loot" sessions those games represented because, when all's said and done, it's pretty much the same experience.

  • avatarcaradoc
    Quote:
    As an aside, on the copy of this article over at BGN someone mentioned an upcoming Middle-Earth adventure game from FFG called Middle-Earth Quest. Anyone know anything about this? Information seems pretty scarce.

    I mentioned it! MWahahaha!

    I too am hanging out for information, aside from a basic press release from FFG I have seen nothing. The press release came out in 2007.

    This is from the press release, copied off BGG:

    Quote:
    Indianapolis IN (August 17, 2007) – Fantasy Flight Games (“FFG”) announced at a press conference on Friday, August 17, that they will be releasing Middle-earth Quest, a new adventure game based in the world created by J.R.R. Tolkien in his classic literary works The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit.

    "FFG has worked hard to be synonymous with adventure board games, and publishing an adventure board game based on Professor Tolkien’s classic books marks a high-point in our efforts," said Christian T. Petersen, CEO and founder of Fantasy Flight Games. "Middle-earth is really the Holy Grail of fantasy settings, and we’re always happy to be allowed to contribute to it."

    Thematically, Middle-earth Quest will take place approximately ten years after Bilbo Baggins leaves the Shire, and several years before Frodo leaves Bag End on his journey leading to the destruction of the One Ring. Thus, Middle-earth Quest will take place in a time of growing darkness. "Players will meet and interact with characters from the saga, but not be constrained by having to follow a major character's path," explained Petersen. Rather than taking the role of a major character, whose destiny will be tied up in ring saga, players will take control of characters such as, for example, a rare adventurous Hobbit, a Gondorian Captain, a Rider from the Westfold, or numerous other character types. Not only will characters be able to experience new adventure in Middle Earth, but we will carefully seek to tie in the experience with the massive amounts of lore and story that takes place around the edges of the central THE LORD OF THE RINGS storyline."

    FFG has acquired the license from Sophisticated Games, the U.K licensing partner of Berkeley U.S based Tolkien Enterprises. Middle-earth Quest joins a long line of previous collaborations between FFG and Sophisticated Games, namely the Lord of the Rings the Board Game (and its three expansions), The Hobbit, Lords of the Rings Trivia, Lord of the Rings: The Confrontation (standard and deluxe versions), Ingenious and Ingenious: Travel Edition.

    FFG intends to release Middle-earth Quest sometime in the Spring of 2009.

    If anyone knows any more it would be great to hear it!

    Cheers,

    Giles.

  • avatarInfinityMax

    It's funny, while you were ticking off your things you don't like, I kept going, 'Warhammer Quest,' and then you got to 'I crave competition' and then I was like, 'oh. OK. You're screwed.'

  • avatarmikecl

    I know Magic Realm is dismissed as inaccessible by most, but it really is the best fantasy board game. Your play weaves a rich and detailed story that is never predictable. It is a competitive game in which characters can also cooperate when it suits their interests or fight and steal from each other when it doesn't.

    And it has character growth without a level up mechanic. The game is an adventure that can see you go from a penniless traveler to a mighty warrior on a steed, a powerful sorceror who can melt into miss and bring down lightning from the mountain top. You can become an Evil Wraith (WitchKing) absorbing the souls of Dragons to take their form and wield their power or a pesky Elf who gets his fellow players lost and who hides so well he's rarely seen. It's a grand adventure in every sense of the word and when learned it can easily be played in about three hours (not counting set up).

    I'm an old DM from way back and I haven't found anything in a board game that comes close.

  • avatarInfinityMax

    I have a copy of Magic Realm, but it doesn't have any of the counters, so I would have to make my own. I really should give that a spin.

  • avatarrepoman

    I'm currently attempting to learn Magic Realm with the Rules Written in Plain English. Going to try it out on Realm Speak before I attempt to get a copy. The interface seems ok to use. Not super easy but not super hard either.

  • avatarDr. Mabuse

    One day, Mikecl I would love for you to teach it to me . I had RealmSpeak for awhile and understood a lot of the game (I think) except for combat. After awhile I stopped playing as I ended up clicking things randomly during combat and dying..often.

  • avatara strange aeon

    Yeah, Magic Realm is a commitment, but RealmSpeak really makes it pretty easy, since it enforces all of the rules.

    I've played with my brother a few times over RealmSpeak, and even though I own a (mostly) complete copy, I don't know when I'd ever be able to actually get it to the table. Maybe if I really master the rules, I could bring it to a game day and convince some people to play with me, but it's one of those games I want someone else in my area to be super enthusiastic about, so they can teach me in person.

  • avatarmikecl

    Hey Doc. I'm always up for a game but I'd want to run through it first before I teach it. Combat isn't that difficult. If you undercut on time, you hit and if the weight of the weapon you wield equals their weight/vulnerability, they're dead.

    It gets a little complicated when you don't undercut on time. Then you get into the boxes where, the monsters are rolled down and you're maneuvering at the bottom and trying to get your weapon into the box they're maneuvering into. But once you learn it, it's pretty straightforward.

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