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baby-carcFor my birthday recently, I got a copy of King of Tokyo with was unexpected but very nice. What was rather more unexpected was that my six-year old daughter took to it like Godzilla took to smashing up urban Japan. She wanted to play, and play and play to the point where she was even beginning to wear out my enthusiasm for the game, especially two-player which is fun and fast but not where the game really shines. She “got” the whole thing, dice strategy, card effects and all with minimal coaching from me, and had an absolute blast.

The reason this came as such a surprise is that we’ve always had a slightly uneasy relationship when it comes to my games. On the one hand she clearly finds them absolutely fascinating. On the other hand I’m extremely wary of being pushy when it comes to my favourite hobby, and also of trying to avoid introducing her to material that’s too complex for her age which is, let’s face it, most of my games. As a result she and I haven’t spent as much time gaming together as you might imagine, and the times we did it hasn’t been as successful as you might imagine. So so far, she’s been pretty ambivalent about games.

Some of you may think it’s remiss of me not to encourage her interest further. The reasons I have not done so are complex. Partly it’s down to me wanting to let her make her own choices in life. Partly I want her to be able to explore and enjoy standard children’s games while she’s still a child and not want to push her into some faux-academic “improvement” exercise involving maths and strategy. Partly it’s a selfish desire to want to actually *play* a game properly rather than mentoring a youngster in the art. But mainly it’s because I find the spectacle of obsessive gamers rabidly goading their young children into playing complex strategy games absolutely repellent.

Let me be clear here. Some gamers do that mentoring thing I alluded to very well. They sit down with their friends and spouse for a game of Agricola or whatever, sit their kid on their knee and let them play a position while the whole time gently reminding them of rules and suggesting good moves for them, allowing them the participation and attention they crave while making sure they’re not overwhelmed by the mechanics. That’s fine. It’s difficult to do without patronising the child, and I’m a little dubious about the value of it since you could still have family time playing an actual family game but that’s not a big deal. Done properly, everyone still has a good time. I struggle to do this properly, and that’s my loss.

No, what gets my goat is gamers so frenzied over the possibility that “one day” they might get to play Caylus or whatever with their newborn that they seem ready to shoehorn the delicate sensibilities of their growing offspring into that iron maiden of a game just to find out “if they’re ready”. No matter that the rules are too complex. No matter that the strategy is completely beyond them. No matter that spreadsheet games of that nature are probably worse than TV for sucking the playfulness and imagination out of childhood. It’s like the nerd version of the ultra-competitive sports dad.

Just as bad is the excuse offered with older kids that playing demanding games should somehow have to be an educational experience. It’s closely linked with the relatively common mindset that adults can justify maintaining a gaming hobby because modern games are strategy exercises like Go or Chess. The whole thing is a nonsense. While some modern titles can conceivably rival those ancient classics in terms of depth, most cannot. More importantly, nor should they. Gaming is about having fun. Pointing out, correctly, that fun is subjective cuts both ways: some gamers have fun when their brains are engaged in a close intellectual battle, others have fun tossing down beers, rolling dice and making spaceship noises. Society smiles kindly on a variety of activities that involve both variants of fun and everything in between. It smiles less kindly on grown men and women playing board games because it’s viewed as a children’s activity. That’s the problematic point, and whatever solution we come up with needs to challenge that attitude, not to try and bypass it with feeble excuses about intellectual validation. Similarly, when most kids sit down to play games they usually want to enjoy those games in the childish manner that’s suitable and appropriate for them.

Because I feel so strongly about these things, I’ve always felt it was better to sit back and let my daughter come to me with a desire to play games when she wanted to. When she was very small she wanted to do so frequently but of course her idea of play was very different to mine. She would get the pieces out of the box and make up her own make-believe stories with them. I went along with this as best I could in my straight-laced, adult, imagination-free world and learned a lot from doing so. And I figured I was doing the best I could to encourage her at that tender age.

But as she grew older, problems started to develop. When she began to play simple mass-market games and learn the structures of turn-taking and rules, she wanted to try and do the same with my grown-up games. Knowing she wasn’t capable, and wary of the issues I’ve outliIned above, I simply refused in most cases, which caused resentment. Even when I relented, as I did with games like Pitchcar and Carcassonne (if you leave the farmers out, small children are perfectly able to get to grips with it) it became clear that she was still too young to cope properly with winning and losing, and adult games are generally harder to throw than children’s ones. My one attempt at acting like a true gamer parent, getting her a copy of Gulo Gulo, backfired as she didn’t like it but clearly felt compelled to play because it was a present. Gradually, her desire to play declined. I figured that my gentle encouragements had fallen on deaf ears and she just wasn’t wired the way I was with games. That was cool: we played some of her mass market games, and had plenty of other fun things to share together, and I figured it’d be no bad thing if she grew up to be less of a nerd than me.

Then, after a long hiatus when we didn’t play that much at all, she discovered Castle Ravenloft. It happened when I took the game away on holiday last year and her curiosity about all those cool miniatures overcame not only her vague disinterest in games but the active revulsion she felt toward the scary box art. We played that together on holiday and had an absolutely fantastic time. The key was the fact that it was a simple, co-operative game. The co-operative nature obviously overcame issues she had with winning and losing and, more importantly, made me feel that I could help and mentor her with the rules and strategies without feeling like I was being patronising or taking over her game. She still took obvious pleasure and excitement in rolling the dice and drawing the cards: so much tension and terror in fact that she ended up making me drawing all the monster cards because they were too scary! Also the rich narrative that the game presented allowed us to talk it over afterwards and share our experience of play.

In retrospect it seems a bit crazy that I didn't try her with a co-operative game earlier. In reality, my distaste for the genre meant I owned very few of them, and the only one that generates proper story - Arkham Horror - is obviously too long and complex for a young child. So we needed Castle Ravenloft to fill that gap. Of course from there were went on to playing Wrath of Ashardalon and Legend of Drizzt too. And we had such fun playing them that for a year we didn't really play any competitive games aside from her toy shop ones. Until, that was, I got King of Tokyo.

The first time we played it I took it easy on her as I wasn't sure how well she'd cope, especially with the card effects. We played an open-style game where I explaned all the rules and the decisions I was making but she seemed to pick it up really quickly and enjoy it so right away we decided to play a proper competitive game. I went first, and got into Tokyo. And then it was her turn: she picked up the dice and rolled three twos, an energy bar, a heart and a claw. Now if you don't know King of Tokyo, claws damage other players and numbers, if you get three of them, score you the equivalent amount of victory points. When she saw the results, without hesitation she set the claw asisde and went to scoop up the rest to re-roll them. I stopped her.

"Wait a moment" I said. "Don't forget that set of twos will score you points, and points are one way to win the game."

She looked at me, full of innocent sweetness and light. And she said: "I know Daddy. But I want more claws so I can kill you."

I was a very proud Dad in that moment, And I began to believe that perhaps I had not schooled her so badly in the art of gaming after all.

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Comments (25)
  • avatarldsdbomber

    nice article. maybe something like Castle Panic would work for you guys?

  • avatarMattDP  - re:
    ldsdbomber wrote:
    nice article. maybe something like Castle Panic would work for you guys?

    It might, if Castle Panic wasn't one of the worst games ever released.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    You're out of your mind re: Castle Panic. It's a great family game, and is fun.

    Also, I think we are self-loathing in a parental sense when we talk about how repugnant it is to "push our kids into our hobby." Many parents I've seen won't so much as go outside and toss a ball with their kids, so the way I see it, if a kid is getting played with by a parent, even on their own terms, it's a win for the kid.

    Kids are SUPPOSED to be playing games. It's ADULTS that are the aberrant ones, societally, when we devote as much time as we do to games. So, I get that whole "making their own decisions" argument, but it's not like you're sparking a joint with them at age 11. Playing games with your kids, be it Candyland or Runebound, is healthy and a great way to show your kids that you love them.

    It's one thing to drag your kids to every con, every game night at the local comic store. That's the repugnant part, if you force them to go against their will. But playing games, at home, with your kids is healthy and part of developing a strong parent-child bond.

    Dragging kids, kicking and screaming, to cons and comic book stores, forcing them to learn Magic and screaming at them if they make a mistake...those are the ones that should re-evaluate their fucked up parenting.

  • avatarmads b.

    But if you don't scream at your kids when they make mistakes, how will they ever learn? And how will they ever grow up to become the Magic player/cheerleader/football player you never became?

    /irony

    I love playing games and I love my kids. If I can combine the two things my head might explode from pure happyness. And if my daughter (aged 3,5) want to play with my grown up games, I'll be happy to invent some rules that will make it feel like both a game and fun. But that being said I think your comments about what kind of games kids can play at a certain age (both here and in other posts) are spot on.

  • avatarSagrilarus

    The key is to read your kids when they play. They may want to throw the ball but settle for gaming because that's what they can talk Dad into. That's the heart of the matter -- regardless of hobby you need to spend the time to figure out if you child is tolerating it in their desire to be with you or truly enjoying it.

    Castle Panic is the first game my boys hated. It was one of those special firsts for them, so I took photos. For the most part they play CCGs which I don't care for very much, but that's the direction they want to go. Who am I to tell them they're wrong?

    S.

  • avatarMattDP  - re:
    SuperflyTNT wrote:
    You're out of your mind re: Castle Panic. It's a great family game, and is fun.

    It probably is a good family game. I can see it working that way. But I was introduced to it by a group of grown-up gamers and in that setting I thought it sucked even more than most co-ops suck. And for family games I've got the D&D titles. Job done.

    SuperflyTNT wrote:
    Also, I think we are self-loathing in a parental sense when we talk about how repugnant it is to "push our kids into our hobby." .. snip ... But playing games, at home, with your kids is healthy and part of developing a strong parent-child bond.

    I agree with everything you said. As I spelled out in the article, my concerns are about involving kids in the hobby, not gaming with them. I'll play Snakes & Ladders, or Monopoly or Candyland (it's not a known licence in the UK), or Life or whatever with them until the cows come home. But most hobby games are aimed at adults, and it's not right that kids should be playing them as written unless they're heavily supported by an adult.

  • avatarSan Il Defanso

    My son (almost 2 and a half) likes to roll the dice in King of Tokyo. No matter what he rolls, he always says "I got two points!" Also, he recognizes and can name Cyber Bunny. And I think he's associated the lightning bolts with buying cards, though I'm not sure about that last part.

    There's a difference between wanting to spend time with your kids and wanting them to be like you. Games have allowed me a lot of fun times with my son, just in moments where we get to roll dice and fight guys against each other. But we also like to play Candyland and Connect Four. I don't care what we play or if we play, I just want to spend time with him. But clearly a lot of gamers want their kids to be hobbyists, like them. If that's how my boy wants it to go, whatever. But he's not me.

    This is the kind of articles I think gaming needs more of. Less analysis, more reflection. Well done, Matt.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    Seriously? People doing things with their kids, irrespective of what they are, is a good thing. There's so many apathetic pieces of shit churning out Future Fuckups of America that it's ridiculous. I was with you on the whole "let's make my kid a robot version of me so I always have a playfriend for my big kid games, and take them to RenFaires as Drow" but you're over the edge stating that "adult games" aren't appropriate for kids, "hobby" or not.

    My 11 year old is far smarter and more insightful than a third of the cockweasels at BGG. Her wanting to play Zooloretto or Ascending Empires with her friends doesn't make her a budding game hobbyist. It makes her a kid who recognizes that if she wants to play a game, there's the bullshit games at Wal-Mart and there's FUN games. The fact is that it doesn't matter what game your kids play...if it is age-appropriate (as listed on the box) then it's not some sort of parental sin.

    Maybe you're defining "kids" as 6 or younger and that's where we're parting ways.

  • avatarSan Il Defanso

    Well of course it doesn't matter what your kids play, Pete. I'm simply commenting that muscling your kid into Caylus-time just because you want them to isn't a great reason.

    I absolutely agree that spending time with your kids, whether it's around games or whatever, is a good thing. Would anyone say otherwise?

  • avatarMattDP  - re:
    SuperflyTNT wrote:
    Maybe you're defining "kids" as 6 or younger and that's where we're parting ways.

    Bang on the money, sir.

    And there's a reason why I'm focussing on young kids. Not just because my eldest is only six but because that's the sort of age when creepy gamers seem to start to think they can foist their hobby onto their unsuspecting offspring.

  • avatarDukeofChutney

    im a decade younger than most of the guys and gels on here i think. So i don't have kids. I played games with my parents as a child though. My parents aren't gamers, but back in the 70s my understanding is you just played board games, because video games didn't exist. So they had games they played at uni; Monopoly, Cluedo, Scrabble (nothing original here), but also diplomacy, and Dungeon (the old Gygax dungeoncrawl game). SO i played Dungeon and Diplomacy fron about the age of 6 and 10 respectively. Diplomacy mostly ended with either me or my brother throwing a sulk.

  • avatarSagrilarus  - re:
    SuperflyTNT wrote:
    Seriously? People doing things with their kids, irrespective of what they are, is a good thing. There's so many apathetic pieces of shit churning out Future Fuckups of America that it's ridiculous.

    Yeah, but setting the bar at B+ and declaring victory because there are D parents out there is falling short of the mark. Including the kid in the bank robbery plans shows caring, but it's insufficient. I doesn't give the child a chance to grow in their own direction.

    I went to two dozen Toy Train shows with my Dad and loved to watch him examine each car in turn. He'd explain to me what he was looking at in great detail. "This car has nickel plates here instead of copper, which means it was manufactured in 1943." It was fun and it was time I got to spend with him without my sisters along. But I didn't end up being a Toy Train guy. As I grew my Dad followed me instead of leading me when he saw that my interests were in other things.

    So having the kid in your lap for Agricola and letting them move the pieces is good use of the time. But when they start down a different path you need to let them take the lead.

    S.

  • avatarSan Il Defanso  - re: re:
    Sagrilarus wrote:
    So having the kid in your lap for Agricola and letting them move the pieces is good use of the time. But when they start down a different path you need to let them take the lead.

    I don't think this would fly in our house. Too many things for little hands to grab. Heck, King of Tokyo pushes the level of control he's willing to exercise.

  • avatarChapel

    Funny, I have always treated gaming as a hobby just "my thing". I will certainly play games with my kids if they ask too, but I'll never push them to do so. My wife isn't much of a gamer, but she will play the occasional ticket to ride, and settlers with me from time to time. And I am totally OK with that. I think all hobbies should come organically. No one pushed me to play games when I was a kid. My parents during the 70's when I was a wee lad would play a weekly pinocle get together. But the kids were usually relegated to another room, and my dad would who was an avid chess player would let me play with him when I asked. But overall they never "pushed" it on me. Well besides buying me the redbox of D&D for Christmas, but I think they treated that as any other xmas gift you'd typically get. They never knew that it would blossom into a lifelong diversion.

    So I see it this way. My games are on the shelf, and when they get old enough and ask to play something, I won't turn them away. Other than that, they are free to like or dislike anything they choose.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    Then we, good sir, are in total agreement. A 5 or 6 year old being coaxed into playing Power Grid would be messed up....

    ...but then again, an adult being coaxed into it is almost as messed up...

  • avatarShellhead

    Matt, I'm not a parent, but I can relate well to your article because my dad got me into boardgaming. Both of my parents liked playing the mainstream family boardgames, like Sorry, Aggravation, Clue, and Monopoly. But my dad also tried some lesser-known games, and fell hard for Acquire. From his mid-20s until the end of his life, my dad was always up for a game of Acquire. He brought it on vacation. He took it to family gatherings. He invited friends over on Saturday nights so he could teach them to play and then crush them. By age five, I was playing Acquire with him, because it didn't play properly without at least three players, and my sister wasn't old enough to learn yet.

    It was an odd thing as I look back on it... this was decades before BoardGameGeek, when the only dedicated boardgamers were history buffs and military types playing wargames, and my dad had no connection to that scene. He was just going into stores and sometimes buying boardgames that were a bit out of the ordinary, and usually giving them to me because it wasn't really acceptable for grown men to buy boardgames for themselves at the time.

    Anyway, I'm glad that my dad got me into boardgames. It took me places that he never would have imagined, like D&D and Vampire larps and even co-designing a published boardgame. I understand your concern about parents forcing their interests on their kids, but my dad tried to get me into a lot of things, including little league baseball, boy scouts, running a paper route, learning how to fix cars, etc. Half those things didn't interest me, and I gave them up after a respectable try. The other half became a major part of my life, at least for a while, because those things were more interesting to me. I appreciated the overall effort and I (usually) enjoyed spending that time with my dad.

    I think this is one of the perks of being a parent, that you get to shape an impressionable young person, at least up until the rebellious teenage years. And if you don't make the effort, than other people will be influencing your impressionable kid, though hopefully not in a negative way.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT  - re: re:
    Sagrilarus wrote:
    Yeah, but setting the bar at B+ and declaring victory because there are D parents out there is falling short of the mark. Including the kid in the bank robbery plans shows caring, but it's insufficient. I doesn't give the child a chance to grow in their own direction.

    Really? I don't know about you, but spending time doing something fun with my kids is not a B+, it's a solid A. We do all kinds of shit and we rarely play games, but when we do, it's an A.

    Quote:
    But when they start down a different path you need to let them take the lead.

    Couldn't agree more. My issue is watching people trying to fit the square peg into the round hole when it just isn't working. I'm not saying it's destructive, but it certainly puts the interests of the parent above the interests of the child, which is selfish. Same thing with the parents who require their kids to do gymnastics or cheerleading or whatever just because they think that the kid needs to be out doing "something" rather than giving the kids options and letting them choose.

    I'm facing this now...mama wanted my oldest to be into gymnastics, to learn an instrument, to get into cheerleading...and she doesn't want to. She wants to get into karate and singing. But mama doesn't like karate and thinks singing is a waste of time. Ugh.

  • dahli.llama

    My son just turned 6 this summer and he has been interested in games for a few years now. We have some of the LEGO Heroica games, and he loves building the worlds and playing them. He takes losing pretty hard at times, but he's understanding the strategy a bit more. We've tried Castle Panic and it's alright, but not his favorite. He's also really gotten into Pokemon, and is easily able to read all of the cards. Again, strategy is a bit beyond him, but otherwise he plays well.

    My biggest trouble with finding the time to play with him is his little sister. She's just about 3, and would much rather just grab the pieces and make a mess. This drives him crazy, so finding time when mom can watch her so I can play with him is tricky.

    I do hope that both of them will be able to sit down and play Agricola or Caylus with me and make for good competition, but I also understand that they won't be doing that for a few years and to let them grow into it at their own pace.

  • avatardragonstout

    Loved the article. My son, 2 at the end of the month, just over the last couple weeks started getting obsessed with my board games; specifically, with pulling out the pieces and doing whatever the hell he wants with them (the only rule, and he knows it well, is "don't step on the board"). He's crazy about trains in general, and so his favorite by far is Ticket to Ride; he seems to want to commit all the city names to memory, too.

    We've tried playing "Go Away Monster" with him, and he totally cannot handle taking turns or letting other people have their own rooms. But he loves matching the shapes, and putting the monsters to bed.

    I see nothing wrong with playing hobby games with your kid, though. I can't imagine playing 90% of my games with a 6-year-old, sure, and of course we'll play Monopoly & Clue et al, but a lot of the German games I have, those are just standard issue family games in every department store in Germany, there's no weird "hobby stink" around Settlers of Catan or Carcassonne, for example.

    I am going to have to control myself with Magic, for sure. I've already bought him cards to open up in > 6 years and everything. If he doesn't like it, that's obviously fine, though, but when I was 11 and Magic came out, it blew my mind and sparked my imagination in a way that hasn't been equaled, and I'd be lying if I said I weren't hoping to relive a little bit of that Magic naivete; no rush to teach him strategy, just let him marvel in the excitement of Craw Wurms and 200-card barely shuffleable decks like we all did. The hard part is going to be figuring out restrictions on myself so I don't just absolutely crush him and destroy that joy; back then it was great because I was just playing against other 11-year-olds with the same dumb ideas and excitement and lack of strategy that I had.

  • avatarAncient_of_MuMu

    Did you write this Shelly or is it someone else's work? I thought you had an older daughter, and weren't called Daddy by her.

  • avatarAncient_of_MuMu

    Weird when I first saw this article it was credited to ubarose, and now it is Matt's.

  • avatarJazzbeaux

    Yes, I saw that Ubarose was the original author. Didn't make a whole lot of sense until it turned into a MattDP article.

    Sam

  • avatarMattDP

    Yeah sorry about that guys. I wrote this in the site admin page rather than cutting & pasting as I usually do. It turns out you can change the author on that page: I must have clicked & scrolled it at some point by mistake.

  • avatarColumbob

    My daughter (2.5 next month) loves playing with all the miniatures from the various D&D/FFG games, often asking for them when they're put away. Or looking at the various cards like daddy. The big dragons are especially popular. But not as much as Elmo and Cookie Monster, that love story is already over a year old and far from over.

  • avatarDogmatix

    What the hell is it with little kids and Elmo? My daughter is not yet 2 and hasn't even *seen* an episode of Sesame Street (the only TV she will actually sit and watch for more than a minute is either soccer or swimming--it's a little odd to see, but she's absolutely fascinated by soccer) but *instantly* fell in love with Elmo. (As for Cookie Monster, I was 6 when I first refered to him as "Grover's retarded cousin" to my parents. I think that assessment still holds to this day ;) )

    Anyway, good article Matt...

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