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The Ties That Bind The Ties That Bind Hot

GordianKnot.jpgYou may recall a column from a couple of weeks back which sprang from a discussion I'd been having with Pedro Silva. It's proved a pretty rich vein in which to mine for column inspiration - in the latest episode we returned to the vexed question of how ill-defined the concept of "Ameritrash" still is, in spite of the term now being fairly well known amongst gamers. That in turn wedded together with some thoughts I'd been having about what binds us, here on this site, into a community which isn't a straightforward question seeing as we seem to have gathered quite a few Euro-fans over the course of our existance. So, even though it might have looked like we'd left the Ameritrash definition argument behind, I'm going to dredge it up again and perform a few necromantic rituals over its decomposing corpse. Time to get the nostril rub out, gentlemen.

One thing we've become pretty infamous for around here in spending time bitching about what we don't like rather than celebrating what we do like and to be honest it's a viewpoint which has some validity. Whilst criticism of perceived negatives is important in driving things forward I think that this overwhelmingly negative approach is unfortunate for a number of reasons. It makes us look like the sort of people who criticise endlessly without proposing solutions. It drives away new gamers. It does little to actually encourage people to try the sorts of games we love. We all know this yet we all continue to persist in the same small-minded attitude. The reason, I think, is because we aren't entirely sure what we stand for - how can we go about celebrating what it is we love in games when we don't know what that is? Other sub-genres in the gaming world have much clearer definitions than we do of what they want from a game - and Euro fans seem to have a particularly crystallised understanding of the blueprint for a perfect game, not least I suspect because they like logical games and logical games by definition lend themselves to the application of a fixed ideal of quality much more easily than other game styles.

We on the other hand are at the opposite end of the spectrum. Take a look at some tiles popularly considered Ameritrash and you'll find three major strands. Firstly, multiplayer conflict games and two-player fantasy/sci-fi wargame hybrids. Secondly you've got role-playing/board game hybrids, dungeoncrawl and adventure and exploration games. Thirdly - and the smallest category by far - are "take that" negotiation and screwage games. Look at those categories and what common thread do you see running through? Nothing? Look harder ... still nothing? Well, the reason is because there is virtually nothing uniting these games. About the only thing I can see is a particular preponderance of fantasy and science-fiction themes and that's a pretty weak thread. A couple of weeks ago I sat down to a game of Cosmic Encounter with a group including a huge fan of dungeon games. I thought he'd be bound to enjoy the game but it turned out he hated it, whilst everyone else had a great time. Discussing it with him afterward it turned out he couldn't stand the negotiation element of the game and from that I can only deduce he'd probably dislike most multiplayer conflict games and screwage games - and as a fan of exactly those kind of games I'll happily confess that I in turn find it hard to understand what drives people to play a lot of the adventure boardgames on offer nowadays. What hope do we have a meaningful understanding of what we love in games when gamers from the two major threads in "Ameritrash" can't relate to each other over what it is they enjoy?

The argument that what these games share is a particular level of mechanical and thematic integration and that what we seek out in games is a strong theme has always rung hollow to me. It falls down when examined from a number of different angles. There have been several columns on this site in the past arguing that the idea of "theme" in a game is in fact empty because a game is always an abstraction - a huge abstraction at that - and that gamers always end up playing the mechanics in the end. If we really want theme why aren't we all off playing Wargames which, with their strong simulationist elements, are arguably the most thematic games of all? If we look at Eurogames which are commonly lauded on this site you'll find many which are just as theme-less as any other such as Ra, and others such as Through the Ages in which the theme falls apart on close inspection. We probably spend more time savaging games for being transparent mathematical exercises than we do complaining that they lack theme - and games such as Power Grid and Amun-Re which are both relatively thematic and effeciency exercises demonstrate that these are separate facets of design. We might get closer to the mark by substituting, as many of us have done at various time, "narrative" for "theme" as a unifying principle but even this isn't entirely satisfactory. Although it's true that most games grouped under the AT umbrella do generate a strong narrative, it's equally true that a little imagination can enable one to construct a narrative out of many of the driest, most objectionable Eurogames.

I'll go off on a tangent now to discuss something else which was briefly touched on during some forum threads recently. We spend a lot of time here making fun of the "beards and bellies" stereotype of gamer with no sense of fun and no personal hygiene. Whilst I've laughed along with everyone else one thing I've always found slightly strange about this stereotype is the way we constantly apply it to Eurogamers. Now - I've spent years on the Warhammer tournament circuit and, more recently, I've spent a reasonable amount of time gaming at Euro-friendly club nights and I can attest without a shadow of a doubt that most Eurogamers don't fit that stereotype and that there are plenty of fantasy and science fiction gamers who do. So why do we continue to apply it to just Eurogamers? It's an especially bizarre question given that in the forum threads I mentioned previously, people popped up to acknowledge that the existence of the anti-social gamer was as much a bane in our neck of the woods as it is in any other aspect of gaming. In point of fact it was encountering an endless procession of gamers like that that finally drove me away from RPGs because their behaviour seemed to me particularly damaging to what is almost entirely a social and imaginative form of game. Indeed I've found board gamers to be, if anything, by far the most well-adjusted group of hobby gamers there are.

So having raised two apparently unrelated issues, how can there be a shared answer to both, and what is it? My thinking is that "Ameritrash" as we understand it isn't actually a label for a style of game at all. Rather, it's a label that should be applied to a particular type of gamer. The sort of gamer who is attracted to this site. The sort of gamer who doesn't take games too seriously and who enjoys competition and conflict but isn't that bothered about winning. The sort of gamer who doesn't care much about authority figures and will houserule whenever and whatever they like regardless of official instructions from designers and publishers. The sort of gamer who mainly plays games as a way to structure their social time with friends and who values games that encourage the social element. I could certainly go on, but there's little point - you get where this is going. Seen from this point of view, the concept of Ameritrash can cut across the problems I've been discussing. The reason we seem to like such a diverse rag-bag of games is because there is no real unifying factor about what we like - all we know is that we don't like head-down, silent games that don't function for us as our beloved social outlet. The reason we mock the unfortunate smelly gamer stereotype is because those are people we encounter whose expectation of a game runs contrary to our own and who, as a result, can ruin a game session for us in astonishingly short order. We conflate this stereotype to the Eurogame because doing so allows us to conjure up an image of the nightmare gaming session - a bunch of sad nerds playing a mathematical spreadsheet game in absolute silence. It's a useful image to us because we can use it as an instant rallying cry, an immediate reference point that we can all relate to and share.

At first glance this realisation doesn't actually help us overcome the basic hurdle I introduced at the start of the article - if we're a shared mindset who finds solidarity in discussing games we hate because there's precious little uniting the games we love, what hope is there for us finding a more positive form of commentary? Well, having reached this understanding I think there's a path forward. It comes from us trying not to celebrate what we like in games because that's a disparate group of tastes, but from spening time celebrating what we love about the experience of playing a game because that's where our shared tastes lie. It's not something that's discussed very often - for some reason session reports play second fiddle in our affections to reviews or opinion pieces and too many gamers seem to want to spend the time deconstructing the mechanics in the hope of building a perfect game or fretting over why Mr. Average doesn't like boardgames than they do understanding what's fun - whatever that means to you - about playing boardgames. And that's where our roots lie. So that's where we should be.

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Comments (36)
  • avatarlollocaust

    If your definition is slightly vague, that's understandable, since trying to define anything will lead to vagueness, let alone something as nebulous as a genre. That being said, I really like the idea of Ameritrash as a mindset rather than a type of game. I think that it comes closer to explaining the concept of Ameritrash than anything else I've read. One thing that you didn't explicitly cover in the article is that there seems to be an Ameritrash "play style" that comes with the territory. The cut-throat trash-talking revenge-taking metagames that take place in the vast majority of Ameritrash games are to my mind just as important as the attitude that the gamers bring to the table. Actually, the two are, in my opinion, closely linked.

    On the subject of negativity, I feel that the distaste for euros/maladjusted gamers stems as much from the culture of fucking with your friends in or out of the games as from any particular anger or distaste. Talking shit is simply what you do to your opponents, whether in a game or on a forum.

    This didn't really come out quite as coherent as I would have liked, but hopefully it makes sense to someone

  • avatarMerkles

    Some interesting ideas regarding long-term viability of F:AT, Matt (esp since most of the original founders of the blog/website didn't necessarily envision it lasting very long).

    Having a blast with fun, often thematic, often confrontational boardgames tinged with irreverence --- that's what has defined F:AT in my mind.

    In the short term, there's also nothing wrong with a community defining itself against what the dominant trends are, either--its just that in the long term, the dominant trend will change (Hello, Henry Clay? Any Whigs out there yet?) Just so long as that doesn't define a community in its entirety --- which hasn't happened with F:AT.

  • avatarhancock.tom

    Great article. I particularly agree that Ameritrash gamers and Ameritrash gaming style (trash talking, take that, etc.) are more easily definable than Ameritrash games. Defining a genre is always hard, whether you are talking food, movies, anything really.

    Despite that, I think that AT games do have one mostly unifying characteristic. You sell the concept of story WAY short. What is the uniting characteristic between the three types of AT you mention? Each produces a great story.

    You dismiss theme because all games are an abstraction. I don't think I agree with that either, but it misses the point whether you agree with it or not. Even a completely abstract game can generate a story. Sixteen years later I still remember a game of chess I played in 1993, because it was fucking epic.

    Does this "story" happen with eurogames? Sure it can, but it isn't as likely as it is with Dune or Battlestar Galactica. If there is any single unifying characteristic about Ameritrash games, it is that they create a story. I think if you look at the euro and wargame tendencies of AT fans, you'll see a similar pattern in what non-AT games the AT gamer enjoys.

  • avatarMattDP
    Quote:
    Does this "story" happen with eurogames? Sure it can, but it isn't as likely as it is with Dune or Battlestar Galactica. If there is any single unifying characteristic about Ameritrash games, it is that they create a story. I think if you look at the euro and wargame tendencies of AT fans, you'll see a similar pattern in what non-AT games the AT gamer enjoys.

    Not sure.

    Take Puerto Rico for example. If I were to sit and write down the moves of every player in a game of PR I reckon I could write an entirely convincing narrative session report about some rival plantation owners undermining each other in the economic heat of the 17th century. I reckon I could probably even make it readable and entertaining.

    If you don't believe me, search around. I'm aware of a number of narrative session reports on titles which are 100% solidly Euro (that famous one Joe Gola did on Amun-Re, for example).

    So I don't buy this. The huge difference is that for you and I, there's no way we would ever play a game of PR and be interested enough in the chain of events to want to take the extra step of imagination to turn it into a narrative. A good session of Twilight Imperium or Arkham Horror on the other hand can stay burnt so vividly into my memory that I can write a detailed report on it a week later. But all we can actually deduce from that is that I'm more interested in the narrative of a titanic clash of intergalactic civilizations than I am in the intricate economics of slave ownership.

  • avatarhancock.tom

    I think we are talking apples and oranges now. I'm not talking about writing session reports, I'm talking about off the cuff gaming tales. Put another way, I'm not talking about the story of the pieces moving on the board, I'm talking about the story of the players around the table.

    Its pretty rare for someone to utter the phrase, "hey do you remember that time we were playing san juan, and I blah blah blah" even among people that LOVE san juan. On the other hand, "hey do you remember that game of battlestar galactica blah blah" is pretty common. I think this is true even for people that really love puerto rico, or whatever eurogame you want to insert. The narrative elements just aren't present in a game like that like they are in Dune, BSG, or whatever.

    Maybe you are right and the distinction I am drawing is totally false, and somewhere some guy is sitting around right now saying to his gaming buddy "remember the time I converted 4 pink cubes into 17 VP in one turn blah blah" but I just can't believe that is as common as people retelling stories from Empires in Arms, Dune, Talisman, or even Risk.

  • avatarShellhead

    Many good points Matt.

    It's true that we are often unfairly applying general gamer stereotypes to EuroGamers when they unfortunately apply to a wide range of gamers, including role-players, console gamers, CCG fans, and yes, AmeriTrash gamers.

    And I will reluctantly admit that you have a strong point about themes. All games are an abstraction to some degree or another. However, I believe that theme is still a source of distinction between EuroGames and AmeriTrash, because EuroGames tend to have boring themes that are often based on commerce and prince-pleasing, while AT games are mostly about conflict, often in settings of science-fiction, fantasy or horror. Both types of games can have a narrative, but only AT games tend to have a dramatic narrative. Death and brutal injury are dramatic. Kissing the prince's ass is much less dramatic, and counting beans is the very opposite of dramatic.

    One more important point from your article was the rampant negativity at this site. We need to spend less time bitching about TOSsers and wankers and more time discussing what we enjoy about our own favorite games.

  • avatardclose

    Shellhead wrote: One more important point from your article was the rampant negativity at this site. We need to spend less time bitching about TOSsers and wankers and more time discussing what we enjoy about our own favorite games.

    This I agree with wholeheartedly. I'm happy Matt is publicly addressing the negativity. I think it's good to challenge pessimistic thinking and negative beliefs; negative attitudes are not all bad, and sometimes a negative outlook may be appropriate, but too much negativity needs to be addressed. Instead of focusing on everything that is wrong and negative all the time, direct some of that energy to focus instead on creating options for positive outcomes. A negative attitude is self-defeating. We don’t find solutions to problems by looking for someone or something to blame all the time. And, worst of all in my opinion, it creates a victim mentality. Ameritrashers are not victims! Stop acting like one!

    I'm not suggesting creating an Amertrasher Pollyanna utopia (what on earth would that look like???!), but a little less complaining about other sites and more focus on this one would be a welcome change.

    I direct people to this site because of the positive content that is here: Skeletor's Runebound reviews, for one. I've sent a half dozen folks over here because of that this past week alone! Good content is a definite draw. Let's create some more! The negative stuff is mostly a bore.

  • avatarbfkiller
    Quote:
    If I were to sit and write down the moves of every player in a game of PR I reckon I could write an entirely convincing narrative session report about some rival plantation owners undermining each other in the economic heat of the 17th century. I reckon I could probably even make it readable and entertaining.

    The difference is that I wouldn't have to put in any effort to find the narrative in a game like Battlestar Galactica for the narrative is part and parcel with the design. With Puerto Rico, the players have to create a narrative pretty much from scratch -- it wasn't designed to tell a story, it simply has a setting/aesthetic to tie the mechanics together and make the actions relevant to the players. Kudos to those imaginative enough to pull a story from that, but even an unimaginative dude like me has no problem recounting an epic story months after a game of War of the Ring. They're all basically abstractions at the foundation, but there's a hell of a lot difference in the degree of abstraction in the end products.

  • cwmassey

    Great article, maybe the best ever seen on this site.

    Regarding the narrative or lack of it in Eurogames. I think narrative results from the players first rather than the game. I play plenty of Euro style games as well as Ameritrash style games and have as many memorable sessions of the former as there are of the latter. Sit around the table with the usually attendees at one of the regular game nights I attend and the trash talking is as rampant in a game of Dune as it is in a game of Princes of Florence. Narrative is about the players first and foremost.

  • avatarbfkiller
    Quote:
    Sit around the table with the usually attendees at one of the regular game nights I attend and the trash talking is as rampant in a game of Dune as it is in a game of Princes of Florence. Narrative is about the players first and foremost.

    Yeah, but trash-talking isn't narrative or story.

    Battlestar Galactica has more narrative than El Grande, even if the players in BS are sitting in near silence the duration and the EG players are completely into the experience. Narrative is built directly into the design of many games and the players are simply experiencing it.

    (Of course, the players can add to the narrative experience, but there are some games in which the players would need to build a narrative pretty much from scratch since it isn't encouraged in the design. And adding narrative to games like Basari or Saint Petersburg would typically make for hollow, artificial story-telling.

  • cwmassey

    I'm not saying trash-talking equals narrative. And certainly BSG has a built-in narrative not present in something like El Grande - no argument there. But narrative is not limited to what the game provides and a successful and memorable narrative requires player interaction regardless of the game being played.

  • avatarhancock.tom

    dclose:

    This I agree with wholeheartedly. I'm happy Matt is publicly addressing the negativity. I think it's good to challenge pessimistic thinking and negative beliefs; negative attitudes are not all bad, and sometimes a negative outlook may be appropriate, but too much negativity needs to be addressed. Instead of focusing on everything that is wrong and negative all the time, direct some of that energy to focus instead on creating options for positive outcomes.

    I also agree more focus on our own content and less "look at this on TOS" would be great, but I don't think "all the time" is an accurate description of how negative we are. In fact, if you actually believe that we are being negative even most of the time, you are not reading the forums, articles, or blogs posted at all. 98% of content here does not mention TOS except as a reference site. The fact that the other 2% are super long **coughwankerthreadcough*** is a little troubling, but its hardly "all the time."

  • avatartimeLESS

    regarding "defining Ameritrash" id suggest some philosophical reflections http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_resemblance

    Im not really convinced on the Ameritrash says more about the player thing. You point out yourself in the article that trashy players have widely different taste. At the same time yes, i am convinced because trashy players say NO TO EFFICIENCY and CLAIM THE RIGHT TO VIOLENTLY HAVE FUN! I feel trashplayers treat games as GAMES! and not as some enlightened activity to be enjoyed by connaiseurs. they are just stupid games and they are fun and we want to play! Well thats my attitude at least.

    Good article!

  • avatarclockwirk
    Quote:
    The fact that the other 2% are super long **coughwankerthreadcough*** is a little troubling, but its hardly "all the time."

    Don't forget Excited Man, every Simon Mueller comic, and almost anything Steve Weeks posts.

    F:AT is not "mostly" about being negative toward Euros, but there is a substantial group of posters who build up that notion simply because it's easy to jump on the "anti-Euro identity train" around here. Why are the "wanker" and "Joe & Bob" threads so long? Because the easiest thing to do when you don't actually have anything substantial to contribute is to join in on the "us v. them" sentiment. It happens to an extent here and on BGG.

    Unfortunately, the vocal minorities in both cases are the ones other people pay attention to while ignoring the fact that the heaviest contributors of substance on both sites actually enjoy a large cross section of both Euros and AT.

    I can't believe how much flak Tom Vasel gets on this site considering that AT accounts for at least half of his top 10 games of all time.

  • avatardclose

    hancock.tom wrote: ...
    dclose wrote:
    "Instead of focusing on everything that is wrong and negative all the time, direct some of that energy to focus instead on creating options for positive outcomes."

    I also agree more focus on our own content and less "look at this on TOS" would be great, but I don't think "all the time" is an accurate description of how negative we are.

    Good catch! That's what I get for attempting to write a positive-focus message while feeling like crap (I'm home sick today, as is the hubby; some long weekend this turned out to be. Bleh.) Definitely cross out the phrase "all the time". I'd probably say "most of the time", whereas you would not, but then again I'm coming off the "BGN Joe and Bob" debates, so that probably colors my opinion.

    Really all I wanted to to is point out that while providing a place to bitch about other sites may keep the "regulars" happy, the unwashed masses are far more likely to come here looking for reviews and news and gossip about what's up in the Ameritrash arena (and I'm not refering to the Thunderdome here). :-)

  • avatarMattDP
    Quote:
    I can't believe how much flak Tom Vasel gets on this site considering that AT accounts for at least half of his top 10 games of all time.

    This is a good point - I've thought the same myself. But then again there are other reasons that Tom catches it round here. I don't have time to explain myself as I'm off to game night, but I'm sure someone else can.

    I just realised that the Graphic of the Gordian Knot I picked for the headline of this article actually looks like a gigantic - and particularly solid and difficult to pass - turd.

  • avatarhancock.tom

    Close, I think you have been colored by the Joe and Bob thread and the wanker thread. Bust out of your shell and read some other stuff, especially in the game forums, blog posts, and articles.

  • avatarShellhead

    There have been 874 responses to the Wanker thread so far. Add up all the responses to the rest of the threads on the two most recent pages worth, and you get 919 responses. It would be a little bit silly to dismiss those 874 responses in the wanker thread as not representative of this site.

  • avatarjeb

    Matt, if your turds come out looking like fudge swirl; you need to get that checked out.

    I agree with the third or fourth sentiment you've got in there--that the players make the Ameritrash. One thing that does unite us is that games should be fun, even if they aren't good. DUNGEON is not a good game from a design or development view. It's a damn mess, really. But it's crazy fun, hence it's popularity. A lot of games turn into accounting exercises, and that's fun for some people. Hell, I calculate TITAN probabilities while playing PBEM games (=HYPGEOMDIST() FTW!). But face-to-face, a gaming session should be about "Oh shit" moments. Whether playing CHESS or DOOM, there are opportunities for "Oh shit" all over the place.

    That should be a new metric for games--the start-to-OhShit ratio. Much like OMM's infamous start-to-crate ratio for FPS's, this doesn't look like much from the outside, but for those in the know, it has a lot of weight.

  • avatarBullwinkle

    This really is mostly bullshit.

    The fact is that there are plenty of articles, threads, and posts where the positive or welcome aspects of gaming and/or gamers are discussed and praised: player interaction, innovation, strong theme, creation of narrative, matching of theme and mechanics, component quality, etc., etc. Why doesn't anyone think of those as Ameritrash qualities? Well, someone does: me. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. But some people can't bring themselves to mention this, 'cause that wouldn't fit their own narrative.

  • avatarSpace Ghost

    I think that saying that all games are an abstraction is both true and ridiculous. It is true in the sense that any game with a fixed set of rules probably could be convereted to some math/statistical problem where we were fighting/negotiating over some vertex in geometric space; however, that is what I think one of the defining differences between Eurogames and Ameritrash is.

    With most Eurogames, the link to abstraction is easily seen. That is because the thematic context is placed into the game after the mechanice, giving rise to the phrase pasted on theme. The theme merely serves as a place holder to help remember the rules of the abstraction. On the other hand, many of the Ameritrash games we discuss build rules and mechanics around an idea that they are trying to emulate.

    This is magnified by the flavor or the setting of the game. How easy is it to immerse yourself in the game universe? If it is easy to imagine yourself carrying out the actions in the game, then it is definitely more thematic and something that sets Ameritrash apart. This immersion can be captured through imagination (e.g., the flavor text in Arkham Horror, the minis in Descent, etc.), player interaction and negotiation (e.g., Battlestar Galactica), or the physcial representation of events on a board that shows movement in concrete, relatable manners (e.g., Risk) -- and I am sure there are many more.

    So, to some degree, I think that theme is meaningless in terms of defining the nuts and bolts of a game. However, I think it is necessary when defining how connected a player feels to the game.

  • avatarDeath and Taxis

    Good article Matt and great commentary. That's why I keep coming back to this site.

    I'm comfortable with Ameritrash being used to define a type a gamer rather than a type of game. But I think it would be worthwhile fleshing out the descriptions that you have outlined in your article. Some of these traits will be shared by those who overwhelmingly prefer the stereotypical Eurogame. Ticking off which ones apply to you will show where one is on the Ameritrash scale.

    lollocaust wrote:

    Quote:
    On the subject of negativity, I feel that the distaste for euros/maladjusted gamers stems as much from the culture of fucking with your friends in or out of the games as from any particular anger or distaste. Talking shit is simply what you do to your opponents, whether in a game or on a forum.


    This certainly describes my position on the subject. I have declared Eurogamers my mortal enemy. But only a true blue Eurogamer would take my declaration seriously. Relax! We're just fucking with you.

  • avatarDeath and Taxis

    clockwirk wrote:

    Quote:
    I can't believe how much flak Tom Vasel gets on this site considering that AT accounts for at least half of his top 10 games of all time.


    Tom has his supporters here as well. We probably need to be more vocal when he is taking flak to balance the arguments. Tom doesn't appear to take much offence based on his own comments on this site. He's even got a feel now for when he's about to make an appearance on the wanker thread.

  • avatarubarose
    Quote:
    There have been 874 responses to the Wanker thread so far. Add up all the responses to the rest of the threads on the two most recent pages worth, and you get 919 responses. It would be a little bit silly to dismiss those 874 responses in the wanker thread as not representative of this site.

    A little perspective. The Wanker thread is 12 months old. In those 12 months Fortress: Ameritrash has produced:

    797 Articles and Blog Entries
    8914 Comments on Articles and Blogs
    1302 Forum Topics
    21,327 Forum Replies
    142 Listings in the Recommendations Section
    306 User Recommendation reviews
    43 Editor Recommendation reviews

  • avatarhancock.tom

    But, Uba! Aren't we a bunch of whiners who mostly just bitch about the other site? I mean, I've read at least five threads here, so I clearly know what this site is about!

  • avatarubarose

    My private theory is that Amertrashers are people whose social norms and playing style were shaped by growing up with close siblings. It's all shifting alliances, negotiation, deal making, calling each other names, beating the crap out of each other, running like hell when something catches fire, and laughing about it with each other afterwards with blood dripping from your nose.

  • avatarSpace Ghost

    When something or someone catches on fire....

    @Uba: yours is the best theory I have heard.

    @Tom: I have read six threads, so before long you will know as much as me and realize all we do is complain.

  • avatarMattDP
    Quote:
    My private theory is that Amertrashers are people whose social norms and playing style were shaped by growing up with close siblings

    Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm an only child :)

  • avatarStephen Avery

    Heya Good article and even better post discussion.

    You hit the nail on the head- its the attitude about the game. I had a great time playing agricola becuase I started trashtalking. "Oh yeah, you want that hearth?! yeah well its mine now Biyatch. Suck it." By endgame we were in stictches and the other three eurogamers admitted it was the most fun game of agricola they had played. Who Won? I dunno, I bet they don't either, but they do remember threating to come burn my farm.

    Good call on the negetivity. It is easier to destroy than build up...and as ameritrashers we want to DESTROY

  • avatarAntimatter

    I'm going to take this thread as an opportunity to come out of lurker status. Visiting this site has been part of my daily routine for a while now, mainly because it covers the games that I like. While I think we can gain something from the fresh perspective Matt is offering, I'm not sure that it is a new definition of Ameritrash is in order. For me, it really is about the games.

    I have gotten used to thinking of the AT/euro dichotomy as a continuum. A game like Runebound is far enough to the one extreme that I would call it AT without qualification. A game like Nexus Ops feels almost as much like a euro as it is an AT game. Settlers of Catan I'm going to place somewhere between Nexus and the extreme euro position of, say, Java (and probably a little closer to Nexus).

    For me, the main qualifying traits of AT are:

    1. Fantasy/sci-fi/conflict theme
    2. Dice/randomness
    3. Complex ("inelegant") rules sets (for purposes of articulating the theme)
    4. Length (for immersion)

    These elements are "trashy" because they have more to do with escape than intellectual exercise; and that is why some eurogamers are constantly congratulating themselves on having superior taste. To be honest, I think our answering criticisms tend to come across as being a little shrill because it is actually difficult to criticize their games. I believe ours are actually more geeky (in the sense that they probably have a more narrow appeal). If we really care to defend our dignity, I think our best shot is usually to nail them on their narrow and self-serving points of view, which has precious little to do with the actual games they play.

    P.S. I am not going to try to quantify the amount gratuitous stereotyping of eurogamers I have observed around here. I will say that it probably makes up in loudness what it may may lack in quantity. It really describes the "culture" here to a degree that may surprise some of you, especially because it goes almost entirely unchallenged. Even the fact that we don't even refer to "TOS" by name here is a little embarrassing to me. I understand if it pisses some of you off for me to say so as a first time contributor, but this thread seems like as appropriate a forum as I'm going to get.

  • avatarjeb

    I'm with you Starry Decisis or whatever your name is. I refer to BGG a lot here. It's a fucking goldmine of information. You'd be crazy to ignore it, and the re-labeling seems childish to me. I think a lot of this comes from the using that site as a community rather than a resource. As a community, it's got some wicked admins, a lot of blowhards with a lot of oomph, and honestly, not a lot of compelling content. How many fucking Roll Through The Ages reviews do we need?

    SOME content there is grrrrrEAT! And I use it every day. Getting rules questions answered withing MINUTES is a real plus. The re-designed components are awesome--that Magic Realm from carthaginian? Come on, respect. Do I want to chit chat with most of the folks over there? HELL NO. Do I have to? HELL NO. I love it for what it is to me--a massive database of boardgames and their assorted miscellanea.

  • avatarDeath and Taxis

    @ Starry Vere.

    Good first post! The continuum thing was what I was trying to get at when I talked about scale. You just worded it so much better than I.

    I don't have any issues with the culture on this site, but I can understand why some people do. It may change if more people that feel as you do contribute to the discussion.

  • avatarmjl1783

    Actually, when BSG came out, I thought some of the negativity got a little over the top. While there was plenty of gushing over how great the game itself was, there was also plenty of ranting about what a stupid asshole anyone who dared think otherwise was. It's one thing to argue with somebody who nitpicks a game you enjoy, even vehemently. This just seemed really personal, as if you couldn't dislike the game unless there was something wrong with you.

    I like BSG, but frankly, I also think it can get pretty repetitive and boring when you're just playing out one skill check after another without much else going on on peoples' turns. Does that make me a socially inept dickhead who can't interact with people well enough to appreciate this masterpiece? I don't know, but I do know that I will not bring up the game without first mentioning that I like it. And I do like it, 'cause, y'know I'm cool too.

  • avatarTamburlaine

    Re: Starry Vere.
    You've got some good points there, and most of my quibbling with your criteria would be easily accommodated by thinking, as you wisely propose, in terms of a continuum and not a dichotomy. I do think, however, that it's a little unfair, and a bit of an unnecessary concession to the hard-line elements of Eurosnootery to say most AT rulesets are "inelegant." I'm absolutely fine with complex, but there's a reason people use the phrase "simple and elegant:" they don't mean the same thing. If you read an author like Edward Gibbon, his sentences are often quite complex, but never inelegant. In the same way, the rules of a game like Battlestar Galactica are more complex than those of Carcassonne, but are executed, in my opinion, with an equal elegance. I think we should also separate the complexity of rules from the complexity of the knowledge required to play the game. To resume the previous examples, because BSG includes a lot of special text on various cards, understanding the game, at the most basic level, is more complex than understanding the rules; that is, you need to understand what your special abilities and cards allow you to do, as well as what the rules allow you to do. In Carcassonne, on the other hand, all the information about the game is in the rules.

    As to the place of MattDP's article in all of this, I think his bigger point is actually that we ought to move beyond this sort of comparison of game mechanics in favor of looking at the experience of playing a game. With this I wholeheartedly agree, and as long as we are trying to define Ameritrash (or, put more directly, what sort of game we think is good) with the mindset of the Eurogame critical framework, that is, with ideas that are primarily rooted in analyzing the rules of a game and the strategy of winning a game, we are going to fail; as you put it, "it is actually difficult to criticize their games."

    There is hope, however, and I think it is unwise to give in and say that AT has "more to do with escape than intellectual exercise." On the contrary, I think AT games even more than Euros are good "intellectual exercise," not in the usual sense, but rather meaning an exertion of the mind and spirit analogous to the exertion of the body in running or playing tennis, because the playing of AT games encourages the exploration of more complex characteristics and capabilities like courage, persuasion, and helplessness rather than the various offshoots of counting and fiscal prudence which Euros encourage us to develop. More importantly, and more germane to the conclusion of MattDP's article, we are more likely to encounter these good qualities in the actual play of a game than in its static characteristics such as rules, component count, card abilities and distributions, or in its strategy, that is, the game imagined and abstracted. First and foremost, I think the great intuition of the Ameritrash movement is that it is not all about "zee game" as Barnes has said, but rather "zee game being played," with all its attendant circumstances, irrationality, and ephemerality.

  • avatarAntimatter

    Tamburlaine,

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I didn't mean to suggest that complexity is synonymous with inelegance, although I can see how that wasn't clear from my post. I was trying to use "inelegant" as a qualifier. Certainly a game can be very complex and very elegant. But in contrast, I am thinking of games like Dragon Pass, where the designers have created a distinct rules set for each of a couple dozen different unit counters. Yes, with thorough study you can get them all to work together, but the game lacks a certain kind of cohesion that I want to call elegance. To me this is mostly characteristic of AT games, although not exclusively. I would say one case of mild inelegance in a euro are the army cards in Settlers of Catan, which are the only development cards that can be played on your turn before rolling the dice. This fact is not really implied by the rest of the rules set and so it strikes me as a bit of concession in rules design. But AT is full of this kind of stuff.

    Having said that, I rather like some of my favorite games all the more for what I would describe as their inelegance. Instances of inelegance in a good AT game are there to articulate the theme of the game and they remind me that we are at the table to tell a good story. Somebody once brilliantly put it something like this: "In a euro, the theme describes the rules. In an AT game, the rules describe the theme."

  • avatarubarose
    Quote:
    Somebody once brilliantly put it something like this: "In a euro, the theme describes the rules. In an AT game, the rules describe the theme."

    That was me. *blush* I also see it on a scale rather than as a dichotomy.
    There are games which fall in the middle. Those are the games that I try to hunt down, as the good ones tend to be more accessible and have a broader appeal than the games at the farther end of the spectrum.

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