http://fortressat.com/ Wed, 19 Jun 2013 12:12:16 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3417#josc80962 [quote=MattDP]Most reprints tread the lines between these two extremes and rightly so. But it serves to illustrate how hollow the concepts of "Euro" and "AT" and "good and "bad" ultimately are. A better question I think is how many reprints have altered the design - even in small ways - and improved the game. It's still subjective but I suspect in that light the answer is "most". [/quote] I agree that it's a tricky terrain with all you mention (clunky old school designs that have no place today and need to be cleaned up or weird approaches that didn't influence other games and should be preserved). The question is actually not - AT or Euro, unique or bad - rather it's a question of uniqueness. If a game was made for the kind of audience that doesn't exist anymore and changing it means adapting to today's audience means fiddling with what makes it unique, then it can be problematic and we might lose an insight into one of options what boardgaming can be. In that kind of situation of course the original won't sell as much as adapting it to today's tastes. It's not that different to adapting old films to modern Hollywood, but at least one has an option of seeing old films. So I agree with optional variant approach - to have a game as a toolbox where one can make adjustments according to their group tastes - closer to original or more adapted (and these old games were often houseruled, so it's in the spirit of ye olde times) (I've got Wiz War on my shelf waiting to be played, I must try at least two version of it - new school and mostly old school) sgosaric Tue, 17 Jul 2012 22:48:51 +0100 http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3417#josc80961 I have conflicted feelings about the "updating", as do most of us, I suspect. Chess changed its rules many times over centuries before arriving at the current configuration; do we really need to play the original Chess, or can we just accept that the rules we've been using for a century really are an improvement (and who knows, maybe Chess960 is seriously the next step)? Similarly, Magic: the Gathering has changed significantly from where it started nearly 20 years ago; major rules have changed, and the balance of the colors and abilities has changed drastically. While I think the original Magic set was and still is brilliant, I do think that the current state of the game is much improved. I don't like Yomi, but outside of the sketchy business model I applaud Sirlin trying to constantly improve his games. But despite these prominent and almost inarguable examples, my gut still HATES the idea of updating games. I'm glad I went back and got a classic The Fury of Dracula, and I strongly considered switching my Cosmic Encounter to an EON copy, even. Despite never having played Wiz-War before, the new rules changes strike me as completely unintuitive, and it drives me crazy that some of the cards don't make complete sense unless you play with the new rules. It's not nostalgia; I played the obviously inferior Mayfair Cosmic as a kid, and never played either of the other two. I just tried to write something to try to wrap up why this is, but I can't! Maybe the answer is just that I don't trust updaters; I'm not a big fan of the original designs of Kevin Wilson or Corey or any of the other updaters, so of course I get worried when I hear they're changing things in someone else's popular game! Whereas I trust Mark Rosewater as a Magic designer, and I trust Sirlin with his own games. dragonstout Tue, 17 Jul 2012 22:39:29 +0100 http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3417#josc80949 [quote=dragonstout]I feel like I'm on Bizarro World every time you write about Dune. But you do describe Dune and what it feels like to play incredibly accurately. Just differing tastes![/quote] Not as much as you might imagine. I like many of those things in a game too, I just find that Dune pushes them a little bit too much, over a point where they can sometimes become more stressful than fun. [quote]I do have a question whether euroization of old AT classics is a good thing.[/quote] No not too disclaim that you're not having a go at me. I think I'm tough enough to take a bit of disagreement and you make some good points. The trouble with this question is that it's too open ended. What does "euroization" mean? What is a "classic"? The result is a spectrum. At one end you've got a situation where a "classic" is a messy, flawed game with some good ideas that people played because they had nothing better, and "euroization" means to clean up the mess, adding a little strategy and shortening the play time without removing the essence of the game. That's arguably what happened to Warrior Knights and Fury of Dracula (I disagree, personally, with the last one but I'm very much in the minority). At the more extreme end it can mean taking a dramatic, flavourful game and squeezing the life out of it in pursuit of pointless alterations such as balance and mechanical differentiation for its own sake. Examples are harder to find but might include Horus Heresy. Most reprints tread the lines between these two extremes and rightly so. But it serves to illustrate how hollow the concepts of "Euro" and "AT" and "good and "bad" ultimately are. A better question I think is how many reprints have altered the design - even in small ways - and improved the game. It's still subjective but I suspect in that light the answer is "most". [quote]Seems like we need some sort of cultural institution for preserving older designs in their original form - otherwise the past will look all to similar to out present and that's a shame.[/quote] I don't think so. I think the answer is to change games in a manner that leaves them open to being played in a manner similar to the original intent for those that want to. And that, thankfully, is the way that things seem to be going. Look at Wiz-War and Nexus Ops. [quote]REX. I'm becoming Interested. Can anyone speak to how well it plays with 3? with 4?[/quote] Three, no. It's playable with 4 but there are better games. MattDP Tue, 17 Jul 2012 08:52:21 +0100 http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3417#josc80945 REX. I'm becoming Interested. Can anyone speak to how well it plays with 3? with 4? Jeff White Tue, 17 Jul 2012 02:09:33 +0100 http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3417#josc80937 I avoid Rex and for Dune, I'll have to make my own copy to be sure. However, after playing sid meier's civ and TI 3 I'm so fucking tired of clever mechanincs for mechanincs sake and obsessiveness of some players with them. I don't want too look at them. I want to know what to do with them and doing stuff with them. And doing stuff with them means influencing the interpersonal relations as shaped by the game. I'm not sure why the euroization of games brought euroization of gamers who seem more obsessed with the trees than the forest. ("oh look this mechninc is bit different than in that game") Sorry a bit venting spurred by events unrelated to the article. I do have a question whether euroization of old AT classics is a good thing. And who can tell? If gamers have shifted their focus from interaction and "fun" (ride) to glorification of mechanical, euroization is good for them as they can even phantom the good sides of original design and see them as flaws (I'm not talking about Matt here, this is a general observation). For instance I still can't wrap my head around Cosmic Encounter - a game so different from whatever comes out today that it seems to do better with nongamers than gamers as the former are not biased by current gaming mainstream. And yet I'm talking about CE in the state that's already been euroized. (There's been changes to lessen the chaos and time frame (some of effect had complex resolutions)). I'm fine with "fixing" some obvious holes like downtime while retaining the feel of the game, but if "fixing" mechanincs means different game experience, then it's not the same game however you look at it. Problem is that in all the reprints being published these days we're in danger of losing originals in their uniqueness. These games re important just in the way they were made as they show designs not "tainted" by current boardgaming mainstream and can thus show us paths to different kind of gaming than the one we have. I'm not sure why there's not a way to enjoy the games in original AND "adapted" form - originals could be preserved by PnP or publish by demand options. Seems like we need some sort of cultural institution for preserving older designs in their original form - otherwise the past will look all to similar to out present and that's a shame. (BTW Matt, great article Matt. Neatly written with all important considerations done. I'm just not on the same page.) sgosaric Mon, 16 Jul 2012 19:16:57 +0100 http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3417#josc80936 [quote] has the focus on its clever mechanics rather than inter-player diplomatic agreements[/quote] I feel like I'm on Bizarro World every time you write about Dune. But you do describe Dune and what it feels like to play incredibly accurately. Just differing tastes! dragonstout Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:40:46 +0100 http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3417#josc80935 Labor Days is amazing. Pete could have summarized his recommendations to "2000's Def Jux catalog" and I'd generally agree with almost all of it. MattLoter Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:04:10 +0100 http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3417#josc80922 Brit Bucks, then. bfkiller Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:51:59 +0100 http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3417#josc80921 [quote=bfkiller]I could see Arkham City (the sequel) still being expensive, but Asylum? I'd think you could find that for $10-$15 (or whatever that translates into in Euros).[/quote] You'd think so, but no. It seems to be holding value solidly at £10-15, once you factor in P&P. And we don't have Euros here. Don't say that, or you'll have rampant Europhobes crossing the Atlantic to hunt you down with flaming pitchforks. http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3208/3068014120_7e8ab69666.jpg MattDP Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:44:57 +0100 http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3417#josc80920 [quote=MattDP]Arkham Asylum...[/quote] I could see Arkham City (the sequel) still being expensive, but Asylum? I'd think you could find that for $10-$15 (or whatever that translates into in Euros). BTW, I think these two games (especialy City) might just be among the best ever made. Definitely worth getting. bfkiller Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:27:48 +0100 http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3417#josc80919 I dig Aesop Rock a lot. I like the Daylight EP the best myself. He's got a good, deep voice though. Blockhead is a good producer, but is most certainly not the first producer to release solo material. If you like Aesop Rock and Blockhed you should check out RJD2 "Deadringer" and "Since We Last Spoke," Company Flow "Funcrusher Plus," El-P "Fantastic Damage," Cannibal Ox "The Cold Vein" and Deltron 3030. metalface13 Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:15:52 +0100 http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3417#josc80918 [quote=word_virus]Arkham Asylum and Witcher 2 are part of the Steam Summer sale. Ish is cheap, yo.[/quote] Thanks for the tip, but that's of limited help to an Xbox 360 owner :) MattDP Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:51:22 +0100 http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3417#josc80916 Arkham Asylum and Witcher 2 are part of the Steam Summer sale. Ish is cheap, yo. word_virus Mon, 16 Jul 2012 11:55:37 +0100