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× Talk about the latest and greatest AT, and the Classics.

Inaugural Twilight Imperium-Starcraft question

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21 Jan 2008 23:01 #1224 by Gary Sax
Probably the first of many here at the fortress...

Ok, so as background I got back into gaming with Euros, railroad tycoon and settlers to be exact, about 2 years ago (wow, was it that long?). Then I moved into wargames and am pretty deep in that, particularly CDGs. Problem is most of those get played online except for my one wargame buddy who I play more manageable wargames with--Twilight Struggle and POG so far.

I was thinking of making my next game a change of pace and getting my first FFG big box. In my teens and earlier I was totally into all the AT stuff--heroquest, GW games, etc. Love sci-fi and fantasy themes. Right now I'm trying to decide between Starcraft and TI:3. I'm leaning toward starcraft right now because of the much quicker more confrontational play (I have a bunch of billion hour wargames, including multiplayer games). On the other hand I don't know if Starcraft will feel epic enough--I love old turn based computer games and the epic scale. I get the feeling starcraft feels like a bunch of skirmishes and is missing some of the space empire feel that TI:3 supposedly oozes with.

Also the Starcraft label doesn't hold anything for me, I was a huge Total Annihilation fan instead.

Alternatively, if you have any more questions about my preferences, let me know. Also, if you have any other suggestions outside of those two, they aren't set in stone so fire away.

Now I just need to convince some people to play a game of Starcraft or TI:3 over a weekend! I have a couple of people who might... we'll see.

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22 Jan 2008 00:22 #1225 by Mr Skeletor
I'd go with Starcraft in your situation, as it will be easier to ghet into - shorter playing time, can be played with fewer players, and is arguably easier to understand and teach.

But no, it doesn't feel quite as epic as TI3.

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22 Jan 2008 05:27 #1227 by SenorOcho
Starcraft is definitely my favorite of the FFG Big Box line - I hate TI3's oversized decks of cards that that need to get their act together on the whole worthless-to-gamebreaking spectrum.

Its possible that you're better off with neither, but I don't have a backup recommendation handy. Our group was working on a design a bit closer to the feel of Master of Orion, but eventually the designer gave up and now he's making it into a Civ4 addon based on BTS's Final Frontier mod... I keep hoping someone can figure out a decent space opera boardgame, but the whole process turned us off to a lot of similar games out there - its hard to test a game and run into a huge flaw that you can't figure out how to overcome and then turn around and play another game with the same issue, eh?

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22 Jan 2008 10:00 #1233 by Michael Barnes
The thing is, they're both tremendous, awesome games. Despite all the squawking you might have heard elsewhere, they're _vastly_ different styles of games.

TI3 is sort of like what would have happened if Milton Bradley allowed the Gamemaster games to continue on to today but with TONS of variability (those oversized decks Ocho mentioned), player powers, politics, role selection, and scads of detail. And oh yeah, a scifi theme It's sprawling, admittedly a little top heavy, and hugely epic. The mechanics aren't really difficult to learn and a lot of it for a veteran gamer is pretty much second nature, it's just that there's so much of it- technologies, cards, agendas, more cards, etc. It's really not as much of a "monster" as some make it out to be, we've played 6 player games in very reasonable amounts of time (5 hours or so) but that's with experienced players who don't have to stare at the tech cards for 15 minutes.

STARCRAFT is a lot closer to a Euro in that decisions are much more limited (but not that they're any less interesting or without creative potential). If you've played GAME OF THRONES, there's a lot of similarities in how you commit orders. It does have an epic scope but it feels much tighter and it's definitely more direct, immediate, and hostile- you don't have to build huge armies or sit there with a gigantic fleet waiting to attack, you can raise hell with just one or two units. There's only three races (but six characters, each with their own special victory conditions). There is definitely diplomacy/negotation/bluffing but it's much more controlled than in TI3. The combat system is really awesome, it's sort of like a mini-CCG suite (complete with a little deckbuilding) that gives quick and meaningful results. It's about 3 hours with new players, 2 if everybody knows what they're doing. It does feel very skirmishy and less empire-y and I'd say that it require no allegiance to the STARCRAFT license to really enjoy. Just consider it generic sci fi and you'll be fine.

Neither game is really very wargamey- TI3 is really very beer-and-pretzels beneath all the details and STARCRAFT has the streamlining and controlled decision points of a Euro. I'd say that STARCRAFT is _much_ easier to break out with new players and a turn or two in they'll have grasped most of how to play the game. TI3 takes a couple of learning games to really get the most out of it.

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22 Jan 2008 12:30 #1238 by Mr. Bistro
Don't shy away from TI3 if you're worried about it being complicated or not aggressive enough. I just recently played my first game of TI3 and was surprised at how it defied my expectations of complexity. I think it's a game that any experienced group will have a fine grasp on about halfway through a game (and that's not to say they will be lost before that). Our first game was rather aggressive (perhaps due to our newness) and we certainly weren't hungry from a lack of fighting. I have also heard SE's new cards encourage more aggression as well.

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23 Jan 2008 12:22 #1297 by Malloc
I too was a TA fan.. StarCrap was a pile of shit on the computer.


anyway... Keep in mind that if you go with TI3 you need Shattered Empires. It is a fabulous game but you need a groups of at least 4 guys who will take the time to learn it. (3 to 4 player games do work well however).

Starcraft seems to be much more approachable. The play time is shorter. I can not speak to game play as I just got the game and it is still unplayed.

I do not think you can go wrong with either game, I know you can go wrong with TI3. So I guess I suggest that. TI3 is a classic game that people will be paying big bucks fro 20 years from now. (Actually most of the aircraft carrier box games will be like this IMHO) .

If you can afford it get both, find a trade on bgg or something.

-M

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23 Jan 2008 17:11 #1315 by Gary Sax
Thanks for the advice, very helpful.

No problem with the wargame thing, I'm onboard with the AT stuff from my long past involved in it, RPGs and all that good stuff... heh.

Yeah, I'm really torn. To be excessively cliche, my mind is telling me Starcraft for shorter playing time and more accessible... but I'm not that into the starcraft universe and my heart is telling me I want less focus on combat and more on production and cool player powers and whatnot. But it'd never get on the table. Urgh.

Game of Thrones was something I actually considered, now that you mention it. But I have played diplomacy enough to know that although I like the backstabbing in the game I personally like a little bit more meat in the game system to hang the hardcore diplomacy on, so that's big part of it. Of course, Game of Thrones *would* be attractive for the theme, since I'm a huge song of ice and fire fan (only fantasy I still read, actually, since I spend my time grinding to my PHD right now), but there's very little of the theme in Game of Thrones anyway...

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23 Jan 2008 17:38 #1317 by Mr Skeletor
Have you actually played aGoT?

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23 Jan 2008 21:27 #1329 by Gary Sax
Seen it played. Never played it. Didn't feel like it had much flavor from the books and it looked like a teched up diplomacy in some ways. But as you aptly pointed out, I didn't play it now did I?

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23 Jan 2008 21:48 #1331 by KingPut
I received this email about 5 mintues ago:
Hi Peter,
Congratulations on winning this item! The next step is to pay the seller.
Starcraft board game--NEW in shrink 180 plastic pieces!
Malloc we have to get Star Craft on the table as soon as both of us get back from vacation.

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24 Jan 2008 11:48 #1379 by Malloc
KingPut wrote:

I received this email about 5 mintues ago:
Hi Peter,
Congratulations on winning this item! The next step is to pay the seller.
Starcraft board game--NEW in shrink 180 plastic pieces!
Malloc we have to get Star Craft on the table as soon as both of us get back from vacation.


Done Brother Done.


AGoT does capture the complete idiotic chaos that is the books in a game... It is not really like diplomacy in that you never really care about being stabbed since alliances last all of 5 min. You expect the stab so it is no big deal.

The game had potential in the orders system but it all just didn't work for me in the end. I admit it deserves another chance and that I probably added too many of the extras on the initial go but still it appealed to absolutely no one in our group.

-M

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24 Jan 2008 17:33 #1409 by Mr Skeletor
Get GoT. It's diplomacy where they remembered to add a game.

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