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Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

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06 Jun 2012 20:11 #127544 by wolvendancer

Sagrilarus wrote:
"Preorder" or "P500" or "Prepub" or whatever you want to call it makes no sense from a financial perspective. For the consumer that is. For the publisher it does, and they use brinkmanship to see if they can get people to step up to the plate. "If you don't prepub you won't be able to get this game at any price."


So I can P500 something I'm interested in (and have probably played to confirm this if I like, given the way wargames are playtested), contribute to the prompt publication of the game, get a large chunk off cover price, ontribute directly to the publisher, and not be charged until it ships. Or...

...I can wait, hoping something I'm interested in eventually prints, then buy it from wargamedepot at the same price, waiting for shipping delays and hoping they have enough stock to cover me...

...and the latter is the one that makes sense? I had no idea.

Furthermore, it's completely wrong-headed to blame the market conservatism in wargaming on P500s; that's something that's easily disproved, as one look at the pre-P500 marketplace will show you that not much innovating was going on there, either. The wargame market is about as niche a market can exist while still being in some sense a 'market'; when 500 preorders of a product is widely considered a market barometric for success, you are wading in the shallow end of the pool. It simply doesn't have the width and breadth to be healthy enough to support innovation, experimentation, and interesting failures, as much as I might wish otherwise; hell, the same is sadly true for Ameritrash now, as can be witnessed by FFGs endless parade of card games and marketting gimmicks. The two main wargaming companies are going to continue to spit out WW2 product because that's what sells, P500 or no. I'm just grateful when something interesting slips through the cracks.

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06 Jun 2012 22:53 - 06 Jun 2012 22:53 #127553 by SuperflyPete
I have three words that will blow that argument out of the water. Hell, how about six instead:

Small Box Games
Plaid Hat Games

Both companies are highly experimental, and neither are pre-order driven. Small Box takes orders, and they fill them. That's not P500, that's print-on-demand.
Last edit: 06 Jun 2012 22:53 by SuperflyPete.

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06 Jun 2012 23:54 - 06 Jun 2012 23:56 #127562 by Sagrilarus

wolvendancer wrote: ...I can wait, hoping something I'm interested in eventually prints, then buy it from wargamedepot at the same price, waiting for shipping delays and hoping they have enough stock to cover me...



Parts one and two apply to P500 as well, part three is not true -- wargamedepot is usually cheaper especially with shipping, and if you're talking about being an early buyer part 4 evaporates.

But I'm in full agreement with your one point though -- I'd rather have more money go to the publisher and their designers. That's a solid (though altruistic) reason to prepub. And though no single customer is responsible for the print/noprint decision I suppose mine is as important as anyone else's. But that's a problem that the concept breeds, not one it's designed to solve.

Frankly I like Small Box Games' strategy instead where print runs occur on a periodic basis. I'm guessing that's not practical for some part of printing wargames.

My Valor & Victory has foam chits. If it's the chit boards that make it expensive to print I'd gladly give them up for my foam and cut them myself. They have a kind of neat feel to them. I'm much more interested in the intellectual content than the physical, and if they sent the map and instructions, chits on paper and adhesive foam to stick them to, I'd gladly finish the production run. Hell, they could charge the same price. I'd do it just to avoid the 36 month delay.

S.
Last edit: 06 Jun 2012 23:56 by Sagrilarus.

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07 Jun 2012 03:30 #127568 by wolvendancer
Contributing to designers isn't exactly altruistic; I benefit by rewarding designs I like and allowing those designers to continue making games.

Whether one cares about components or not (I do, and think most people that don't tend to set up false dichotomies when discussing this) is strictly a personal preference. And I do like, and use, wargamedepot. But you continue to ignore the main issue: that the P500 system, which current wargame designers, developers, and producers credit with the continued existence of the modern wargame, relies on the fact that people express their interest in titles by preordering. If you don't, you are not only delaying production a little, you are participating in a 'Tragedy of the Commons' where your only relationship to the production of new wargames is parasitical. If everyone waited for wargamedepot to save three bucks, no games would be published. And socio-economic parasites suck. There is, literally, nothing lost in a P500 preorder. The games are heavily discounted, you would have had to go through the order process anyways, and cards are not charged until shipment.

And let's be clear: print-and-play enterprises, like vanity presses, tend to produce shlock. The components are, of course, awful, the designs are almost always unvetted, the playtesting often nonexistent. Flimsy, amateurish games printed for a handful of people are not going to be the savior of the modern wargame.

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07 Jun 2012 14:08 #127574 by Sagrilarus
Very well supported arguments. But I'll take exception with the last one -- just because Print & Play operations tend to produce schlock doesn't mean they have to, and the two companies Pete listed above are solid exceptions to the rule. I could see GMT or MMP continue to produce fine intellectual content through an alternative delivery system. These guys aren't the same as Jimbo from Dubuque printing his half-assed game idea via Dropbox. I have no doubt they could produce compelling games in an alternative format. In fact I have reason to believe one of them is halfway down that path though not the path I'm raving about in this thread.

The problem with your initial straw men (P500 and later retail purchase) is that virtually all of their facets largely apply to both, at least for the customer. There's just not a lot of difference between the two options from the customer's perspective. Bumping up preorder one spot . . . whee! You can argue that we should all hold hands and work together and that's great, but the tragedy of the commons effect you identify happens for a reason -- it's the best solution for half of the business transaction. I have preorders open right now because I want to support the effort, but they're pie in the sky. They're free charity to the developers. I'm a pre-gunpowder fan so they'll probably never print, but I like to feel like I'm participating. I don't think for a minute I'm making any real difference, and I'm not likely to find out if I did for years.

When a title takes 3 years to move from customer discover to customer delivery it grinds any excitement and anticipation out of the release. But the designer has to be actively hawking the game for 3 years in order to generate preorders. I've canceled a dozen preorders because I've lost interest or found alternative titles in the interim. So I've lost heart. I buy older already-printed games that I discover and purchase from a retailer or private sale of a used copy. It's cheaper, it's an option I can act on, and I get a result in a few days instead of a few years. A kickstarter where the publisher makes a fixed promise regarding time-to-delivery is a much more exciting option from the customer's perspective. If the publisher can't reach that far then there's not very much mutually agreeable real estate for us to stand on.

S.

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07 Jun 2012 16:23 - 07 Jun 2012 16:27 #127584 by Dogmatix

SuperflyTNT wrote: I have three words that will blow that argument out of the water. Hell, how about six instead:

Small Box Games
Plaid Hat Games

Both companies are highly experimental, and neither are pre-order driven. Small Box takes orders, and they fill them. That's not P500, that's print-on-demand.


Small Box Games is now *Kickstarter-only*. See Barnes' "payday loans" rants if you are in the anti-kickstarter crowd. Pay now, game *much* later [for non-reprints, though even Omen 2nd had a good 4 month lag between taking my money and getting my game]. They are *completely* pre-order driven--and size of the shop doesn't matter as they're no different than small wargame companies like Legion. Plus the vast majority of their games are card-only [or close to it], which is a fairly different sort of production than maps, chits, scenarios, along with, in many cases, cards.

Plaid Hat has all of 4 games and has had pre-order deals--i.e., "send us your money right now and help us print this game"--up for all of them. This may be a better example because Colby doesn't appear to be completely pre-order driven, but he still takes money on those pre-orders WAY before the non-DTP (i.e., GMT, MMP, Clash of Arms, etc.) wargame publishers do. Add to that a tiny catalog (even when compared to someone like Randy Wein and Legion Games) and you're basically comparing apples to airplanes.

So, while I do actually get where you're going, here's my 2 words for your examples: complete bull. ;)

Edit: The last half-dozen or so posts should probably be split out into a generic "Why We've Tired of Pxxx Systems" as it has fuck-all to do with Ogre :)
Last edit: 07 Jun 2012 16:27 by Dogmatix.

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07 Jun 2012 16:27 #127585 by TheDukester

SuperflyTNT wrote: I have three words that will blow that argument out of the water. Hell, how about six instead:

Small Box Games
Plaid Hat Games

Actually, three words will suffice:

"Do some research."

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07 Jun 2012 16:28 #127586 by Dogmatix

TheDukester wrote:

SuperflyTNT wrote: I have three words that will blow that argument out of the water. Hell, how about six instead:

Small Box Games
Plaid Hat Games

Actually, three words will suffice:

"Do some research."


I think I just did it for him in the previous post ;)

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