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Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

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13 Apr 2012 20:17 - 13 Apr 2012 20:50 #122860 by Dogmatix

Disgustipater wrote:

dysjunct wrote: One positive change I'd make at KS though is to give 50% of the money when the KS closes, and the rest when the product ships.

What about non-companies that can't bankroll the other 50%?


Set the target higher. Gunship: First Strike didn't need $80k to publish--in fact, in reading the updates, I think the stretch goals were more detrimental than anything because he started to run into serious weight problems with the box [which would utterly jack the international shipping] and, based on what I read, the pressure of coming up with new shit that was useful and relevant to the game as fast as the money poured in.

I'd really like some sort of recourse or timeline baked into these things once the funding is made. I don't mind backing a bad project--game, CD, movie, whatever--all that much [I've backed about a dozen in all from 6 different categories, not just games].

While I'd like to think everything I chose to throw my money behind would be golden, I'm fairly certain at least 1 music project I backed is going lean toward true suckage [I've listened to the other stuff put out on the label--the label AR guy clearly has a lousy ear--but, hey, the 7" will be signed and some of the money will (if indirectly) go to the Sun Ra archives, which does matter to me] my shelves are littered with regretable purchases of one stripe or another, be it books, comix, music, movies, or games. I'd be more willing to go way out on a limb on projects if I knew that I'd not be absolutely fucked.

Sooner or later, someone is going to put up a big money pure scam project--not a "OMG, this is harder than we thought it would be!!! situation, which is the category most failed KS projects I've seen seem to fall under--one in which they intended to walk with the money all along. I'd actually go so far as to predict that there will be a cottage industry in defrauding "groupfund" sites in the not too distant future.
Last edit: 13 Apr 2012 20:50 by Dogmatix.

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14 Apr 2012 07:22 #122902 by Mr Skeletor

dysjunct wrote: There's been talk of professionalism and so on, implying that "real" companies would knuckle down and do market research instead of tepidly testing the waters, but professionalism is, to a great extent, doing what keeps your business running long term. Anyone who hasn't read SJG's "Stakeholders' Report" should, if you're interested in the actual nuts and bolts of the hobby game industry. SJ is not an idiot; the history of the industry is littered with countless companies whereas he has supplied about two dozen jobs to people for three decades.


Oh give me a break. SJ is no great shakes as a businessman. He runs one of the oldest companies in the business yet it's never gone anywhere has it? It's a bit fat nothing of a gameing company which has all it's measly eggs in one Munchkin basket. If Kovacks or whoever that fucking artist is got hit by a bus he would be fucked.
I mean fuck me, every other company that has come after him seems to be much bigger and put out much better quality product. The fact this retard claims he couldn't afford to put out 6th edition Ogre is a fucking disgrace. Some powerhouse company he runs.
KS has shown that there was a demand for Ogre. So why couldn't this hack see it? Cause he is a fucking shit businessman, thats why. Feel free to sink money into SJG shares if you disagree.

I'm also amazed at how everyone thinks kickstarter is suck a brillant idea. It's an idea that's been around for centuries - it's called "Cash up front." Also known as "A great way to get ripped off" which is why smart people don't use it. But hey, it's your money. Just be sure that if you ever want a house built or a kitchen or something you come and see me and I'll do it for you. Bring the full ammount with you.

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14 Apr 2012 12:23 #122905 by Michael Barnes
People romanticize the Kickstarter ideal as some kind of Robin Hood-like concept...and they idealize effectively making payday loans to these projects as some kind of investment.

It's bullshit. You're still buying a product up front, and given that what you are buying is marked up for retail you're getting less for "backing" a project than you're putting in.

It's not theft, but it's definitely smoke and mirrors.

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14 Apr 2012 16:39 - 14 Apr 2012 16:46 #122912 by Dogmatix

Michael Barnes wrote: People romanticize the Kickstarter ideal as some kind of Robin Hood-like concept...and they idealize effectively making payday loans to these projects as some kind of investment.

It's bullshit. You're still buying a product up front, and given that what you are buying is marked up for retail you're getting less for "backing" a project than you're putting in.

It's not theft, but it's definitely smoke and mirrors.


Where did anyone in this thread characterize any of this as an "investment?" You trot out this particular canard whenever kickstarter is mentioned--and I agree, and have agreed with you in multiple threads, that the term "backing" is, at its heart, a bit of a sham--but where has anyone at all swooned over their "return on investment?" I'm not seeing it here.

I'm not behind this concept because some fucking grand idea. I'm behind most of the stuff I back because it's going to be the best way (and perhaps the only way in a couple of cases) to get the product I've put money against. The three music projects (one from a band out of Philly I personally know) are records that won't happen without the funding. In the case of the guys I know, I'd be happy to just hand them the $100, but KS basically handles the record keeping on where they need to ship product when they get out of the studio. That alone is worth the project for them. In the case of the other music projects, the small labels wouldn't produce the product without the funding, and I'd like to see those particular albums come to market. I pay a little more than buying it from the label if/when it gets produced and I get a little more--signed 7" and tickets to a local show in one case, and I'm guaranteed to *get* a copy of the product. In the case of music, I *don't* expect to see copies for sale on Amazon or via the label [if it exists, one is a "hey, I want to self-produce a live album" from a jazz artist who is just fucking *smoking* live; if I still played the piano even a little, I would have backed THAT project to the level that got me a lesson with the man because, with Jimmy Smith dead, this cat is damn near the last of the truly great Hammond B3 players out there] will only sell *excess* copies on their website after Kickstarter and the band's road copies are taken care of.

For good or ill, this IS the new "DIY" in the music biz. Sorry if it's not "punk as fuck" enough for you, but it's the new normal.

And Frank, I dunno what it's like in Australia, but in the U.S., you're almost always bringing half the cash up front for anyone in the physical trades before they do a single thing. (And, if you're not happy with the end product and try to withold payment, they can file a mechanic's lien with little fuss that attaches to the property and your credit report until the end of fucking time. So if you have buyer's remorse, you best be able to prove where within the contract they failed to provide service or you're going to be fucked, no matter how shoddy the work was. Most people don't read those contracts too closely before signing and end up most surprised to find out that the shittiest of work can be considered "acceptable" as long as it was completed.)

Ultimately, as mentioned before, the "half up front" is certainly what I'd like to see done these Kickstarter-type groupfund things. There's a reason that, on the boardgame side, I prefer to back known publishers--they have experience with the part where any boardgame project is most likely to crash and burn: production.

I don't particularly like that Queen, SJG, and other well-established companies are going this route, but it has *nothing* to do with "business integrity." As presented in this thread, THAT'S a complete fucking fairy-tale concept if ever I've heard one. People talk about the "risk" business is supposed to take and yet they immediately dismiss out of hand the tools used to *mitigate* those risks like it's some sort of dirty fucking concept. Get your head out of your ass. THIS is a huge risk mitigation tool for them, just like GMT's original P500 project was. They were derided mercilessly for doing that and they knew, at the time anyway, that few were going to be willing to risk cash against it. As Marty points out previously, by taking orders but NOT taking cash, GMT and MMP retain some flexibility and control that they'd lose if they took the cash. Some producers--L2 Design is always going to be my pet example [and as long as Seth Fucking Hiatt can find people to buy Mayday products and even back Kickstarter projects, I'll contend that Art Lupinacci will be able to get people to preorder HIS stuff--unlike Seth, Art's end result is generally pretty fantastic. It's the "getting to the end" part where he's a bit of a disaster]--are willing to surrender that control and eat the barge of shit that comes their way if something goes awry.

What I don't like is that this is looking to be the only route to get some of that product down the road BUT they're still pricing for the distribution/retail channel. See Erik's 2-player game thread about trying to track down Small Box product. They appear to be going *solely* the Kickstarter route (which, admittedly isn't much of a change for them as they were *always* a cash-up-front producer--and one that no one took seemed to take any issue with. Never saw any comments about "fucking payday loans" in the reviews of Clowdus' product). Tie to that Grindhouse Jim's angry retorts to people wondering about the pricing during his "get this shit out of my garage" Incursion sales. He claimed that, if he could sell directly and guarantee those sales numbers, he could price his product at something much closer to the 60%-off of his sale prices.

Ok Jim, so put-up or shut-up. Kickstarter is your chance to do precisely that. Cut distribution out altogether and cut the price in half for that next Incursion pile o' lead expansion [if one is in the pipeline that is].

Unfortunately, SJG, Queen, and the like aren't going to do that because they depend on the distribution channel for their other product, and it's pretty well documented that distributors REALLY don't like being cut out of the picture for certain product, particularly high-demand items. So, ultimately, the price you're paying on Kickstarter will be be marked up for retail because that's the price everyone else will eventually pay (so it scratches that particular psychological itch) and a KS sale offers WAY higher margins on the product.
Last edit: 14 Apr 2012 16:46 by Dogmatix.
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14 Apr 2012 18:16 #122916 by TheDukester

Mr Skeletor wrote: SJ is no great shakes as a businessman. He runs one of the oldest companies in the business yet it's never gone anywhere has it?

Christsakes, speaking directly out of your ass yet again. Dislike him if you feel that increases your gamer cred, but give credit where it is due: the man has kept an independent business running for 32 years and provided a living for dozens and dozens of people during that time. Meanwhile, the hobby landscape is littered with the corpses of countless failed businesses during that time. I think SJ knows a thing or two about keeping the lights on.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that SJ has relied too much upon being a businessman in the last few years and has forgotten how to be creative. The reliance upon Munchkin has certainly paid the bills, but the company as a whole feels stagnant and has not done something truly creative in many years. In a way, I'm glad to see them try this Kickstarter thing, if for no other reason than it's new and different for them ... and doesn't revolve around Munchkin.

Dogmatix wrote: I don't particularly like that Queen, SJG, and other well-established companies are going this route, but it has *nothing* to do with "business integrity." As presented in this thread, THAT'S a complete fucking fairy-tale concept if ever I've heard one. People talk about the "risk" business is supposed to take and yet they immediately dismiss out of hand the tools used to *mitigate* those risks like it's some sort of dirty fucking concept. Get your head out of your ass.

Yes. Thank you. I had a big long response typed up, but you summarized my feelings in far fewer words.

This absurd belief in "integrity" and "professionalism" as it pertains to established companies using KS is such an amazing amount of horseshit that it almost defies belief. It's horseshit on a truly galactic scale. Businesses that enjoy staying in business will constantly be on the lookout for new revenue streams and ways to connect with a new audience and/or broaden their reach within their current sphere. Not to mention that KS, if used properly, is free market research, and that's a deal that can't be beat. Even a failed project can provide some valuable feedback about pricing, audience, demand, etc. That's the sort of data that a lot of companies want to sell you at $100 or $150 per hour.

KS is basically a tool, and smart businesses will use whatever tools they see in the box. It's naive in the extreme to think that this has the slightest thing to do with "integrity" or "professionalism." In what fairy-tale world does that make any sense? "Sorry, employees, but I've decided we won't be using Kickstarter — it wouldn't be professional. Instead, let's blindly muck about and incur a bunch of unneeded risk. Maybe everything will work out, especially if we ride these unicorns to work." Grow the fuck up.
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14 Apr 2012 18:42 #122917 by Notahandle
Dogmatix wrote:
" Gunship: First Strike ... I think the stretch goals were more detrimental ... the pressure of coming up with new shit that was useful and relevant to the game as fast as the money poured in."
That's part of the reason I cancelled my pledge. Stuff being added to satisfy the TOSser 'more, more, more' atttude, regardless of whether it actually added anything to the game or not.

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14 Apr 2012 18:56 #122918 by Dogmatix

Notahandle wrote: Dogmatix wrote:
" Gunship: First Strike ... I think the stretch goals were more detrimental ... the pressure of coming up with new shit that was useful and relevant to the game as fast as the money poured in."
That's part of the reason I cancelled my pledge. Stuff being added to satisfy the TOSser 'more, more, more' atttude, regardless of whether it actually added anything to the game or not.


Yea, I've actually submitted a suggestion that certain "stretch-goal items" that were incorporated get marked somehow as optional as I really believe that some of them are going to be bad for the game itself if people think they're a key part of the design. I believe the designer was really being stretched to the limits of his creativity by the huge outpouring of money/support and it was already a box full of pretty good stuff [based on the reviews and playtest stuff I read]. I don't mind bloat if it's purely optional stuff and chrome, but I almost always prefer to see upgraded physical components over more misc. stuff crammed into the box whenever the option is there.

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14 Apr 2012 19:15 - 14 Apr 2012 20:14 #122919 by TheDukester
Some of the "stretch" stuff for Ogre is beginning to possibly be more trouble than it's worth, too. The next one ($140,000) again will add more weight to an already-large package.

Too much of a good thing? I don't know. Most of the swag seems like harmless fun, but some of it is beginning to get pretty serious (new sheets of material, etc.).

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that I once bought this game in a baggie for $2.95 plus tax ... and then nearly sliced off half my fingers getting the counters ready.

+++++

Edit: ... and the $140,000 goal has been hit. This thing has a life of its own at this point.
Last edit: 14 Apr 2012 20:14 by TheDukester.

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14 Apr 2012 20:20 - 14 Apr 2012 23:58 #122920 by Dogmatix
As I think about this and try to remember some of the details from Grindhouse Jim's blogs, I seem to recall that the distributors like being undercut on price even LESS than being cut out entirely. If an established company wants to keep the distributors happy and pushing their entire product line, I seriously doubt they *can* undercut the ultimate MSRP-through-distribution pricing on Kickstarter if they hope to get a game into the retail channels. The ones who should be sweating this are the online discounters as this has potential to be fairly real competition to them.

I'm interested to see how it goes with Lock-n-Load now that they've created their own Kickstarter system (so they don't have to worry about the 10% that Kickstarter and Amazon Payments will take out of their hides). While I'm not sure if Mark Walker would like to cut out the retailers altogether, the more he can drive sales to his own site, the more money he's going to be able to translate into both re-invested capital for future projects and for simple profit-taking.

TheDukester wrote: Some of the "stretch" stuff for Ogre is beginning to possibly be more trouble than it's worth, too. The next one ($140,000) again will add more weight to an already-large package.

Too much of a good thing? I don't know. Most of the swag seems like harmless fun, but some of it is beginning to get pretty serious (new sheets of material, etc.).

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that I once bought this game in a baggie for $2.95 plus tax ... and then nearly sliced off half my fingers getting the counters ready.


I think they've simply given up the ghost in terms of weight concerns with Ogre. That box is oing to be the size of Risk: Onyx and the weight of a small dog no matter what. I feel bad for international buyers on this one as it's going to be just brutal to ship no matter how you slice it. As far as scenarios go, there are lots out there, though some "fresh out of SJ's head" stuff would be nice if only to keep the creative portion of his head on something other than Munchkin. If they come up with a couple more down the road, maybe we'll finally see that Ogre Scenario Book #2 for which BGG had a DB entry for years even though the only thing that existed was cover art. (Actually, as I think about it, THAT's probably precisely what's going to come down the road--the Kickstarter scenarios collected in a booklet with a couple of new ones to fill it out some.) The one thing about Ogre is that there's a huge catalog of quasi-official material at SJG's disposal as well as a fairly active playtest community. They could offer a lot of things with relatively little development effort.

And, oh man do I ever hear you on the "$5 and sliced fingertips edition." I actually had to buy a second copy of GEV way back when because I bled all over my original countersheet. I was thrilled when I found a cheap copy of the Reinforcement Pack a couple of years ago because I could make a very clean high-res scan of the sheets and run however many copies I wanted on glossy cardstock and laminate them at the office printshop (and the plotter is seriously bueno for running my own maps).

Edit: I didn't know the new goal at $140k was a wholly new full-sized (16x20" apparently) countersheet. *That's* cool, but I can see where the concern might be about too much of a good thing. I'll be interested to see where the survey goes on that as I'd personally like to see a bunch of oddball units that one would normally have to proxy [like the missile crawler variants]; I just hope that the Ogre Miniature players aren't dominating the backer pool and we end up with a sheet of "Ogrethulu" OGREs [they were dumb in the miniatures and I'd prefer not to see 'em here]...
Last edit: 14 Apr 2012 23:58 by Dogmatix.

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15 Apr 2012 00:00 - 15 Apr 2012 00:04 #122922 by wolvendancer

Michael Barnes wrote: People romanticize the Kickstarter ideal as some kind of Robin Hood-like concept...and they idealize effectively making payday loans to these projects as some kind of investment.

It's bullshit. You're still buying a product up front, and given that what you are buying is marked up for retail you're getting less for "backing" a project than you're putting in.


1. Robin Hood? No. It's undeniable, however, that KS cuts-out moneyed interests in creative projects, interests whose only contribution is to speculate. The potential for a music world, a video game industry, without Suits is compelling.

2. Investments? Pure falsehood, if you mean a monetary investment - no one is expecting a payoff from this. If you mean investments in a certain type of art, of game, of music, absolutely, and I think that's already been proven to be the case. When's the last time we had a turn-based Western RPG hit the market? Now, we have three million-dollar prjects ramping up.

3. Marked-up product? Another complete falsehood. The general 'rule' is that you must undercut your pricing for Kickstarter, a rule SSG might be breaking. Think you can get Wasteland for 15 bucks when it hits shelves? Shadowrun? Nope, and they've already said as much. Which, as Schweig said, might not even be relevant to a Kickstarter participant or project, as the original idea was to use your money to direct fund projects you are interested in seeing, the 'rewards' existing as thank-yous and not product. Think a People's Patronage System.

I do wish the anti-KS folks would stop resorting to lies.
Last edit: 15 Apr 2012 00:04 by wolvendancer.
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