Game Salute (seems to be of the one finger variety)

Maybe it's not new to folks as there apparently seems to be some historical crappiness from GS, but just thought I'd share the latest case of unprofessionalism in the boardgaming world:

boardgamegeek.com/thread/1203903/why-ill...-salute-again/page/1

And Tom V's response: www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1206004/game-salute-and-dice-tower

Anyone here have any dealings with them?

Guess someone had to pick up the Mayday mantle. Pete you need to dig in on this one!

I love that I just read, "There can be no denying this is the hottest scandal presently..." No matter how I try and interpret that, it's amazing to me.

THANKS OBAMA!

Regarding Tom questioning Dan, no matter how it would go, Tom would lose. I'm positive that he'd do it with full integrity but it's inevitable that no matter what he asks, he's either labelled a "softball throwing reporter" by one side and a "muckraker" by the other. He was smart not to go there with them. I also think he's right: He's more about promotion of the games than anything else. He does Billy Mays better than anyone and a great many people and publishers rely on him doing his job well, which I would argue he does.

A dick like me would be more the kind of person to ask the nasty questions that nobody wants to ask because everyone seems to know that I'm a reprehensible dick and further, I have absolutely nothing to it. That whole MayDay thing was enough for me.

Mad Dog wrote: THANKS OBAMA!

You know that episode of Family Guy where Stewie's female rival in the acting school tells him "He is the weakest link" and then Stewie goes off for like five minutes saying how funny and timely that joke is?

Yah, go watch that again.

Why the hell would you deal with a middleman like Game Salute anyway? I mean, some dude that wants to make potato salad can set a Kickstarter up and make a million dollars or whatever it was...

Seriously, if you're going to do business with shit-ass carpetbaggers asking for people's money up front without a product to show, then expect them to treat you like shit-ass carpetbaggers.

I rail about this all the time and I know it gets old$ but I just can not for the life of me fathom how "crowdfunding" has managed to somehow defuse consumer common sense and caution. Let alone that of people trying to get a game published.

I have an informant, of sorts, that is inside one of the companies (unnamed) that does a lot of Kickstarter stuff. Here's the not really shocking thing. Some of the games they've done and are doing are in the earliest stages of development when they go live with Kickstarter. They do all the work AFTER the money comes in. It really shows.

The whole thing, top to bottom, needs to be burned in a fire. Sorry, guy that "has always dreamed of publishing a game". Don't fuckin' care.

repoman wrote:

Mad Dog wrote: THANKS OBAMA!

You know that episode of Family Guy where Stewie's female rival in the acting school tells him "He is the weakest link" and then Stewie goes off for like five minutes saying how funny and timely that joke is?

Yah, go watch that again.

And yet its still funnier than anything Family Guy has ever done.

Michael Barnes wrote: I rail about this all the time and I know it gets old...

It never gets old. It's entertaining every time.

...but I just can not for the life of me fathom how "crowdfunding" has managed to somehow defuse consumer common sense and caution.

This is because you're still approaching it from the same perspective as its proponents. Well, sorry, proponents, but you're not 'buying a product', or 'supporting the indie businessman' or even 'helping create a dream'.

Crowdfunding defuses common sense and caution because crowdfunding is GAMBLING. And gambling is an area where common sense and caution almost never come into play. Take away that rare bird who actually sees their funding as a donation and you are left with a horde of addicts hoping for that next big score. Whether they want to enjoy the product itself, or just speculate on it, everyone's hoping the wheel comes up lucky seven. Common sense has got nothing to do with it.

I agree with Bullwinkle to a point--I think his argument fails when the business is just a little more established. SomeGuyWhoLikesGames, LLC is going to be a clusterfuck, and all that gambling thinking is accurate there. I feel like my crowdfunded efforts for Flint & Tinder Best Sweatshirts Ever and the Immersion Cooker are just buying things. I have every confidence they will get made and meet my expectations.

The fact is that the only GAMBLE when buying a Kickstarter game is that the game will suck. The vast majority of games and products are delivered, albeit late, and there's a proviso in the terms & conditions that shows clearly that the designer MUST deliver a product or refund. Shit, I've gotten a refund, so I know it works.

This whole "donation" thing is growing really fucking old, because it's a lie, and it's continually propagated by some of you folks. It's not a donation. It's a pre-order.

Now, I've had wonderful luck with Kickstarter so far, but I've only bought things that I believe will be attainable. This is why I spent more money on Dwarven Forge over Itar's Dungeon: Dwarven Forge does it for a living and has manufacturing outlets, where Itar does not. People still haven't gotten some of that shit.

People use GameSalute because they're chicken shit and want everything for nothing. They don't want the responsibility but they want the money. Fucking cowards. I could Kickstart any one of my games right now and be able to get it made. It's not that fucking hard. It's research and math. The hard part is the marketing and advertising to get people to front you the cash, and fulfillment. Even fulfillment isn't that hard, you just need to have a service and pay them for it, and build that into your pricing.

The single biggest reason these projects become late seems to be artists not wanting to do art. Shocker. I know many artists and quite a few of them are not particularly motivated to do art for someone else, where guys like Jason Benningfield and EJ Carter are bad ass producers. The fact is that if you hire a buddy to do something, chances are that he's going to take advantage of you. It's human nature to shelf a project for a friend but work your ass off for a stranger, sadly. Look at poor Matt...he had his shit all good to go and his "buddy" the art guy decided to tell him to fuck off because he can make more money doing other things. The magic is to HIRE A COMPANY THAT DOES IT FOR A LIVING. There are thousands of graphic design and illustration agencies out there. It's a matter of people not doing the research first, getting bids, and then pricing accordingly.

It all comes down to laziness.

SuperflyTNT wrote: People use GameSalute because they're chicken shit and want everything for nothing. They don't want the responsibility but they want the money. Fucking cowards. I could Kickstart any one of my games right now and be able to get it made. It's not that fucking hard. It's research and math. The hard part is the marketing and advertising to get people to front you the cash, and fulfillment. Even fulfillment isn't that hard, you just need to have a service and pay them for it, and build that into your pricing.

Gamesalute doesn't handle marketing or your kickstarter campaign typically. The reason people go with GS is because working with Chinese printers is a risky and difficult process that requires business acumen, something most people in the industry don't have.

I've read stories of certain Chinese printers giving a quote, and then deciding to up the quote when they've seen a Kickstarter do very well. We've seen lack of Qaulity Control with several kickstarters as well. Much of the issue is you need someone on the ground at the factory or you need an established relationship so you know how to efficiently work in those boundaries.

You don't have to go with GS, you could just work with a company like Panda who can help you facilitate some of this, but there's still risks involved.

Another huge risk is customs delaying your package. From what I understand, they are more likely to pull your container if your company is one which has not imported before. Having your cargo detained in customs is a costly process - I remember the guy behind Gunship saying he lost several thousand due to his stuff being held in customs. GS is more likely to get your cargo through customs due to their company being established importers.

I'm not saying there aren't people who don't just use GS because they're lazy, I'm sure there are some. However, the service GS is trying to provide is a niche which can certainly be filled. Aldo of Impressions is doing some of this (in terms of fulfillment and distribution), but is not taking care of the manufacturing side. Getting someone like Aldo to get your game into the distribution chain is important, as you can't simply hand off a bunch of titles to a distributor. They don't order hundreds or thousands of copies of a game just blindly, they're looking to make money too.

I very much dislike GS, so don't take this post as coming to their defense. The service they provide though definitely has a place. Getting a game produced is not a simple process, and if someone realizes the business side of the industry is their weakness, then they should be commended if they went through GS or someone similar.

There's Grand Prix International (US Game Mfr) who can make a game for you, plus PANDA, which is the go-to for game manufacturing. They are the intermediary, and you pay more, but they also manage the build for you.

Then there's links like this...
beach.silcom.com/~tomjolly/design2.htm
...that take 3 seconds to Google for, and give you lots of options to make them in-house, if you so desire.

I've dealt with Chicago Game And Card, and I did all the legwork to print "Beyond the Fall", which I planned on Kickstarting, but Jim Bailey was interested and I had planned a trip to San Antonio to demo it, but then my dad died and it kind of put me in the "I don't really need the extra drama in my life" mode for a year. Or until today.

With regard to Customs, it's not that hard. My company imports things all the time, and depending on where you're importing from, there's ways to get things cleared. The first step is getting the product shipped on FCA terms so you can control the customs - get a customs broker (NOT HARD TO FIND) and many of the bullshit nightmare stories go away.

SuperflyTNT wrote: There's Grand Prix International (US Game Mfr) who can make a game for you, plus PANDA, which is the go-to for game manufacturing. They are the intermediary, and you pay more, but they also manage the build for you.

Then there's links like this...
beach.silcom.com/~tomjolly/design2.htm
...that take 3 seconds to Google for, and give you lots of options to make them in-house, if you so desire.

I've dealt with Chicago Game And Card, and I did all the legwork to print "Beyond the Fall", which I planned on Kickstarting, but Jim Bailey was interested and I had planned a trip to San Antonio to demo it, but then my dad died and it kind of put me in the "I don't really need the extra drama in my life" mode for a year. Or until today.

With regard to Customs, it's not that hard. My company imports things all the time, and depending on where you're importing from, there's ways to get things cleared. The first step is getting the product shipped on FCA terms so you can control the customs - get a customs broker (NOT HARD TO FIND) and many of the bullshit nightmare stories go away.

Absolutely, you make some good points. Overall, I wasn't trying to say it couldn't be done, more so that it's a shit ton of work and you still take on risk - so there's very much a market for an intermediary that will handle everything (such as Game Salute) and vastly reduce that risk/work for a cut of your money.

Panda's good, but they won't help you clear customs typically (they did provide some help to James Mathe/Minion Games when he ran into an issue, but that's not the norm). They also require 1500 units minimum.

You probably have more experience than I do regarding U.S. manufacturing, but from what I understand board games will never be viable unless you are making only a deck of cards or you don't mind losing money. Quotes from Panda for $7 are equivalent to $22-$25 for a U.S. company. That's in the $10,000+ difference range when you're talking about 1000+ units. I do hear if you print over 3000 copies U.S. is do-able.

Look at Nate Hayden for instance - he lost money on the 1st printing of Cave Evil. I'm willing to bet he made a small amount on the second printing and will likely make a small amount on the new printing of The Mushroom Eaters. However, he's charging $75-$100 for a game which would cost $40 from Miniature Market (and have higher quality of cardboard) if it was produced in China. That's fine, I'm glad Nate's doing what he's doing, but the only reason he's having success is because his games are fucking great and very unique. They have a mystique and buzz about them that can't be found elsewhere.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic. I just wanted to say that there's a niche for what Game Salute does, and it's waiting to be filled by a more competent company.

charlest wrote:

SuperflyTNT wrote: it's waiting to be filled by a more competent company.

Barnes & Co.?

I'd have to pull my files off a flash drive (that's in storage with all my other belongings) but this is how it was:

5/8 tokens were going to be made by Superior POD.
Cards by Artscow.
Boxes by a box company, and the skin on the box was going to be printed locally.
Pawns were going to be Mega Miniatures models I was going to buy in bulk.
Wee wood circles and cubes were going to be purchased bulk and dumped in a vat of Rit-dyed water (this worked incredibly well for black, red, green and blue)
Board was going to be a blank, and I was having 500 units of 16"x16" paper done by a local company.

I was going to assemble them all myself, manage fulfillment myself, and run everything myself. It would take about 2 weeks to make them all, and the cost was right at 70$ per unit, assuming a 8$ per game margin and free shipping.

I may still do it, eventually, but once I'm in a cozy CEO job where I can sit and stare out the window all day.