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Uncomfortable Discussion- is Civilization obsolete?

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23 Jul 2014 14:02 #182813 by ChristopherMD
I thought the whole point of the original Imperial card everyone hates was to speed up the game. I've only played TI2 so don't have an opinion on it one way or the other. Did it actually shorten game time versus when its not used?

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23 Jul 2014 14:07 #182814 by DukeofChutney
i picked up a Hartland copy of Civ in a trade and played 1 3 player game of it for about 5 hours. It was ok, but clearly designed with more than 3 in mind. I mostly wanted to play it, because as someone who is 'into' boardgames, I want to play many of the influential designs that underpin the hobby. I trade it off after that one game though.

I do play long games of 18xx still. But im in a part of my life where i can and i have two opponents who want to do it. If that changed, i would move on and play shorter or different games. I found this is the way with me and video games. I used to play a load of total war, rome and medieval 1 in particular. I had plenty of time for pc games back then. These days, i tend to play shorter pc games as i don't have as much time for it. Also, because i played those games to death i can't really get into the newer games in the series. My interest isn't really there. It was fun but now its done.

I think for one group, discovering civ now could be cool. They might have all the time to play it, and the old school might not bother them. But they probably are not middle aged guys with families.

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23 Jul 2014 14:58 #182816 by ThirstyMan

Michael Barnes wrote: How many games with 8+ hour playtimes have you FINISHED in the last five/ten years? And NOT on Vassal.


errrr....quite a few actually. TI3, OCS Case Blue, ASL (Ok that was a few scenarios but together was 8hrs+)

In other words, we aren't all the same and we don't ALL want games that drop below 4hrs. In all of the above cases, I would rather have been playing those particular games, at that time, than any number of filler/euroweenie games.

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23 Jul 2014 15:24 - 23 Jul 2014 15:57 #182819 by RobertB
Mad Dog wrote:

I thought the whole point of the original Imperial card everyone hates was to speed up the game. I've only played TI2 so don't have an opinion on it one way or the other. Did it actually shorten game time versus when its not used?


I think the purpose of the card was exactly that. "Here, have two points." Players didn't like it because you ended up with these three cards walking around the table.

Player 1 - take Imperial for 2 VP. Which is big.
Player 2 - Take Initiative so that they can get Imperial on the next turn.
Player 3 - Take Technology for a free tech.

Technology isn't quite so much of a forced move, but techs are big enough that you'd better have a damn good reason not to take a free one.

Imperial II replaced that with, "Cash in as many objective cards as you can fulfill", as opposed to one objective per turn. Which does stretch out the game, if players aren't really aggressive.

Personally, I liked the original Imperial. "Get off your dead ass, or Player 1 will win."
Last edit: 23 Jul 2014 15:57 by RobertB. Reason: now with added sense.

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23 Jul 2014 15:28 - 23 Jul 2014 15:33 #182820 by dragonstout
Chris Farrell makes the claim:

Yeah, Civilization is a long game, but many peoples' memories are influenced by the fact that the playing time issue was greatly exacerbated by Advanced Civilization, which could take a grueling 8-12 hours, or even more, to play. Civilization can be comfortably played by 5 reasonable people in 5 hours

Here are his suggestions for keeping the game time down etc.:
So You Want To Play Civilization

Personally? We've only played a couple times, and it was always REALLY fucking long. But then, I play always with slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww-ass players, especially if politics/negotiation is allowed. We've never had an under-6-hour game of Dune, for example, and Cosmic Encounter takes at least 2 hours. So I don't feel qualified to talk about playtime.

And sorry, but this is terrible, expensive advice unless your shelf space is ABSURDLY limited in comparison to your income:

Got a hankering for Civ? Set up the date, go buy it again, play it, and then get rid of it again.

Last edit: 23 Jul 2014 15:33 by dragonstout.

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23 Jul 2014 15:55 #182821 by Msample

RobertB wrote: If we're going to listen to the Font of All Wisdom, Chris Farrell (I'm only partly joking - he knows what he's talking about) he'd tell you that Civ is the bomb and Advanced Civ basically sucks ass. That it adds a couple of hours to an already long game, and breaks the game in the process.


I give him more credit than some, but I'd call bullshit on this. Its been a long time, but I don't remember AdCiv taking significantly longer. What I do remember though was that it made the wise move of taking away the 13 card limit for Civ cards that the basic game had. Because with that limitation, it became very apparent early on that buying a cheap card like Mysticism would hurt you in the long run because it was only 30 points. Which thematically made no sense. IIRC it also allowed you to fall a box behind on the AST and not get totally hosed.

As for long games, I spent 4 days playing the same game earlier this year ( hex / counter / ZOC game to be fair ) . So long play times don't faze me, if its the right game.

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23 Jul 2014 16:15 #182824 by Msample
On a related note, anyone here play REVOLUTION ? IIRC it was Tresham's first design after a relatively long drought and people were quite excited. It was also rather pricey for its time, around $80 I think.

Man did that game suck hard. A dense impenetrable rule book, some unfortunate graphics choices combined to make a pretty dull experience. A group of us sat down and tried to play it. Its one of the few games I've ever packed in without finishing at least one game.

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23 Jul 2014 16:27 #182825 by RobertB
Msample wrote:

I give him more credit than some, but I'd call bullshit on this. Its been a long time, but I don't remember AdCiv taking significantly longer. What I do remember though was that it made the wise move of taking away the 13 card limit for Civ cards that the basic game had. Because with that limitation, it became very apparent early on that buying a cheap card like Mysticism would hurt you in the long run because it was only 30 points. Which thematically made no sense. IIRC it also allowed you to fall a box behind on the AST and not get totally hosed.


Bear in mind that I haven't played this game in maybe 30 years. :) That 11-card limit did make life more interesting, especially for all of the big-point/close speedbump civilizations like Babylon. It's going to make your life easier now, and a PITA later when you need to come up with 1400 points to win.

This from Farrell himself:

boardgamegeek.com/thread/16870/civilizat...dvanced-civilization

I know they also changed the trading, which I liked a lot. Let's have a game of Pit, every turn. :)

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23 Jul 2014 17:00 #182829 by wadenels

Michael Barnes wrote: Let's come to Jesus here. How many of you guys have actually played Civilization in the past five years? Ten years? How many games with 8+ hour playtimes have you FINISHED in the last five/ten years? And NOT on Vassal.


In the past 5 years (all finished, in person):
. Civ+AdvCiv: 2
. 7 Ages: 2
. Age of Renaissance: 4+ (only one game with all 3 Epochs and new players took close to 8 hrs)
. TI3: 1

Also, we've played a handful of storyline sessions of BSG. Each game corresponds to a different in-game ending and season of the show. Dead characters and revealed Cylons are removed from the game between games. Crisis Cards are not reshuffled. Titles are not redistributed (whoever is alive and President in game 2 stays that way in game 3). There are some other minor details as well. Those are all day 4-game affairs that generally last upwards of 9 hours.

Games I haven't got to that I want to:
. Here I Stand
. Virgin Queen
. Blood Royale

Games Barnes should trade to me:
. Civilization
. Advanced Civilization

VonTush nailed why games like Civilization and 7 Ages are great on page 2 of this thread.

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23 Jul 2014 17:38 #182831 by Hatchling
There is a special kind of tension that happens when trading in Civ that doesn't happen in other games. It is worth keeping for that reason alone. I say keep Civ and just play it over 3-4 sessions (take a photo of the board and note cards etc). One month every year or two is enough to justify owning the game. And I bet it will leave you with more memories than playing 3-4 sessions of other shorter games.
The following user(s) said Thank You: bfkiller, Columbob

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