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One Night Ultimate Werewolf - Tips and Tricks

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30 Jul 2014 14:23 #183490 by charlest
In another thread, Dragonstout said:

Hey, you One Night Ultimate Werewolf lovers: I was all set to love it, I love that kind of game, and the concept and rules sounded interesting. But we played five games in a row the other night, and it fell almost completely flat. Our problem was that there wasn't enough to go on (and we're all fans of normal Werewolf, even, where there's very little to go on).

Let me give more specifics: we were 5 players. We played just the basic setup, with Seer, Robber, and Troublemaker (first we tried One Night non-Ultimate Werewolf, with just Seer and Robber, but that was completely bogus). Maybe we were unlucky, but pretty often, there were three non-villager roles in the center (a werewolf and then two of Seer/Robber/Troublemaker), which left us INCREDIBLY little information. We tried lying, of course, claiming "I'm the Troublemaker and I swapped you two", but in the one case a wolf actually got pegged as one of those two, the wolf recognized the lie, didn't crack and just maintained that she was a villager. In the other cases, though, two villagers were picked with the troublemaker claim, and there wasn't even potential for gaining information. Unless the Robber swapped with a werewolf, which never happened, he was just a glorified Seer, able to exonerate one other player; even worse, CLAIMING that you're the Robber also didn't gain you anything, as all you could really claim was "that person is innocent", which doesn't help. Similarly, the Seer was pretty unhelpful unless lucky enough to see a werewolf, and claiming the Seer was also unhelpful, as the player the fake Seer saw would either a) agree that he was indeed a villager or b) deny that he's a werewolf, duh.

So W T F are we missing? It seemed to us like things would ONLY get interesting if there was two of Seer/Robber/Troublemaker in the game (i.e. not in the middle), AND then if there were some overlap between the players/cards they saw/swapped. OR if a Werewolf was fool enough to believe a player claiming to be the Troublemaker, in which case the game just becomes "can a player claim that he's a Troublemaker, make it believable, and randomly pick a werewolf out of his two picks?"

Oh, we also had comical difficulty with the logistics. It was very difficult to pick up cards without anyone hearing, even with the ambient noise from the ONUW app. We had to bring in a towel to put the cards on to make it softer, and we had to all cover our ears the whole time.


This is not too rare of a first time experience. I've also seen this happen with Mascarade (which I'm a fan of). Both games are a little awkward to get, but once things click you are off to the races and it's exceptional.

Lets discuss some basics first:

-You should always play with the Troublemaker - it's the most important role in the game. It's the lubricant to spark discussion and it incentivizes the good guys to lie (something NOT present in other social deduction games). It also makes villager more interesting, as you can lie and say you are Troublemaker, which can be quite effective. I always play with Robber and Seer as well, although some groups like to remove Seer occasionally.

-Once you get the game and the Wolves start losing, always play with the Lone Wolf variant. It's in the rulebook as an official variant and should always be used with experienced groups. Basically, if the Wolf wakes up and he's alone, he gets to look at one center card. It makes the game better, use it.

-Always use the excellent free app. It's just so much easier. We also like to make our own noises during the night, such as tapping on the table with fingertips and maybe even talking trash ("WOLVES WAKE UP" "Ben's a dirty wolf fucker whose eyes are open."). The finger tapping works well and we've never had an issue with hearing players grab cards.

You also need to make sure all cards are positioned in the center of the table and people have good seating positions to reach everything. We also play that if you hear something or see light shift through your eyelids you are not allowed to tell anyone this. You can act on the information if you want but don't share it. I tend to cover my eyes or look down as once I saw a shadow over my eyelids.


Strategy Tips:

-As a Wolf, think about what your story is going to be during the night phase. Consider which role you want to lie and say you actually have, as someone will probably ask you. You do not want to get caught with someone asking you what role you have and stumble through words trying to come up with something. Always have a plan.

-As a regular Villager you need to also think during the Night Phase and consider if you are going to lie or tell the truth. As a Villager, I will often wait a few minutes, give other players time to claim Villager so I can know if others are lying. Villagers can also claim Troublemaker quite easily, you just will want to do it right away in the night phase - don't ever do it after someone else already claims troublemaker as there's no benefit and it causes confusion - which only hurts the good guys.

Why lie and claim troublemaker as a good guy? First of all, if someone calls you out you get information. Someone else saying, "You're lying, I'm the Troublemaker" is telling the truth 90% of the time if you're playing with smart players. So - if someone says they are the troublemaker and you are lying, you come clean and explain what just happened and tell the table you can trust that person. This will more often than not work and be true.

So, why can you be sure the troublemaker who is calling you out is telling the truth? If he's a Wolf and he calls you out he's taking a huge risk, one which is stupid in my opinion. If you are telling the truth (which he won't necessarily know), you now know he's a Wolf. A human who is not the troublemaker, has no incentive to claim Troublemaker as a lie after someone else does, there's no way to prove anything in that instance so don't do it.

You may see a group of 3 or more people claiming Troublemaker when they're learning the game because they think it's silly and they haven't quite grasped the strategy yet, but once you make it over the hurdle and maybe discuss strategy a bit, intelligent players should realize there's no benefit to causing confusion UNLESS it gains you information. Claiming to be a Troublemaker after two other players already have will not gain you anything, so don't lie about it as a good guy.

Anyway - what now if the table believes you that you're the troublemaker. That means the Troublemaker is in the middle, or the real Troublemaker is playing things close to the vest and not saying anything (which is risky for the good guys and typically not a good move at this point). So now, you run with it and lie and say you switched two people. Play as if you actually are the troublemaker, it doesn't matter if you're not.

So...on to the..

-The Troublemaker is key for the good guys and things are less interesting when he's not in the game (hopefully the Wolves don't know he is not in the game). You should never say you switched two people and tell the truth UNLESS you tell a lie later on and say you're truthful statement was a lie. You want to try and trick Wolves into outing themselves by making them believe you switched them.

Example - If I say I switched Tim and Jeremy and act 100% like I'm telling the truth - they will either say "It doesn't matter I was a Villager" or whatever. Or, they will be stupid and say "I was a Wolf, so that means Jeremy's now the Wolf!". Experienced players will never tell you right away if they were a Wolf because they won't know if you are lying about who you swapped. Thus, it's a game of chicken. You typically HAVE to tell the truth about who you really swapped but you need to keep it close to the vest until the final 30 seconds or so of the game. It doesn't always play out this way, but it's a somewhat common occurrence. Being the Troublemaker is goddamn fun.

-As the Robber I like to come out and claim Robber right away and say "I'm the Robber, but I'm not going to say who I stole from." Watch everyone's assholes pucker. The good guys have no reason to lie about their role when you say this, but the Wolves will now be caught as they're unsure what to lie about because they don't know what you've seen. When no one else challenges you and says "You're lying, I'm the actual Robber", the table will come to a consensus that they should trust you. You then need to decide when to dole out the information you have (who you actually switched with).

Here's something else you can try that is very situational - if you're the Insomniac and you look at your role before waking up and see the Robber, you are in an awesome spot. I suggest you lie and say you are the troublemaker and claim to have swapped two people. If someone calls you out, you can assume they're telling the truth AND you can have the Robber player vouch for you telling the truth (as he stole your Insomniac card and knows you're good). Bam, three of the good guys identified. Now the real Troublemaker should lie and say he swapped two players he doesn't know about.

-Seer should look two cards in the middle 75% of the time. It's much better than looking at one specific player's card. It lets you narrow down what roles are in the game. If you see a Troublemaker or a Robber, or if you get lucky and see Two Wolves - you're golden. I like to come out and say "I'm the Seer, and I looked at two cards in the middle." Don't tell people what you saw yet. It makes it harder for the bad guys to lie. Looking at Middle cards is also important in possibly identifying what role the Drunk has acquired - assuming the drunk tells the truth about what card he took (ask him to point to which position he took from).

-Masons shouldn't really be used unless you have 6+ but we sometimes like to throw them in with 5 players. I love them. One of my favorite ONUW moments was when I was a Mason and looked up and saw another Mason. When we all opened our eyes, I claimed to be the Seer right away and said I looked at my Mason buddy's card and saw that he was the Troublemaker. Then immediately, with no time in between I asked him which players he swapped? Hopefully the other Mason is smart enough to play along and pretend to be the Troublemaker. The real troublemaker and seer where in the middle of the table that game and we got insanely lucky, even if they weren't it wouldn't have mattered. We could have come clean after awhile and vouched for each other.


Finally - you can see some of my examples of players vouching for each other (Masons seeing each other, Robber swapping Insomniac, etc.) and ask yourself, "What if the two Wolves are pretending to have done that?" They won't or they will lose 99% of the time. The two Wolves can't collude and pretend to be other roles vouching for each other because they will be caught by those other players who actually are those roles and be screwed.

This is one of my favorite games and I can offer more specific advise, but this is a starting point.
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30 Jul 2014 14:31 #183494 by Bull Nakano
I didn't have much to offer past the OP, but if the problem is not enough information for the village team, take out a villager and put in the insomniac. The game is all about two things, creating lies to trap people and building trust.
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30 Jul 2014 14:42 - 30 Jul 2014 14:46 #183498 by charlest
Absolutely, as a good guy you're trying to fill in this puzzle which is doled out piecemeal by the other players. Trying to make the pieces fits is the interesting part.

You also need to be aware that there are more good guys than Wolves, so you are highly incentivized to share that information. If you're not sure how to properly lie (what it will gain you) then just tell the truth if you have helpful information.

The depth of the game really shines once you've established a metagame. When everyone is really into it and understands the basic strategy and some of the things I detail in my OP, then it's all about turning that metagame on its side and who can manipulate it in the most clever way. I've played in 5 minutes games where the metagame shifts multiple times within those 5 minutes and has a large effect on our follow-up games. It's incredible and unlike anything else I've played.


Edit - I also think it's worth mentioning that this is one of the few games I own which we house rule. We play where players aren't forced to vote. You can simply choose not to vote when the time runs out. This is much better than the official way for three reasons:

-None of that circle voting bullshit. Explaining that to people is awkward. If we agree there are no Wolves then just everyone agree not to Vote. We still lose if we're wrong.

-The Tanner can't dick over the game and make everyone lose. This is stupid as the Villagers 100% can't win if both Wolves are in the middle and the Tanner is in play. With the no vote option, the Tanner must convince people he's a wolf still, it's just way cleaner and makes sense.

-It prevents people from accidentally cheating. If everyone has to vote (per the rules), what do you do if someone stumbles when the time runs out and waits a half-second to vote. What if he was influenced (even sub-consciously) by seeing players pointing at someone before he voted? You can't have this problem with no voting because when the time runs out, no one can late vote. They count as abstaining.
Last edit: 30 Jul 2014 14:46 by charlest.

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30 Jul 2014 15:46 #183517 by dragonstout

Bull Nakano wrote: I didn't have much to offer past the OP, but if the problem is not enough information for the village team, take out a villager and put in the insomniac. The game is all about two things, creating lies to trap people and building trust.

To me it sounded like the Insomniac would have the same issue I felt with the other roles, i.e. that they're only interesting when there's intersection in use between two roles, Insomniac being unexciting if no one else messed with your card.

Charlest, I haven't read your whole post yet, but I can't wait to and it's hugely appreciated. These kinds of games are frequently about clever, out-of-the-box metagame tricks that come up the more you play, but this has been falling so flat, and even discussing after each game we were seeing nothing we could've really changed, so getting some of those tricks to jumpstart us is helpful (I noticed that you've also posted a lot on the BGG ONUW forums).
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30 Jul 2014 15:53 #183519 by san il defanso
Here's the kind of things that can happen in this game...

I played a game a month or so back. I was the thief, and in the night phase I ended up switching with a Werewolf, so now I'm a Werewolf. We had a 10 minute day, and after about 7 minutes no one had played the "I'm the Seer" tactic. I was then able to say that this other guy was the Werewolf, claiming to had seen his card. Of course I had, because I now had it. The look on his face when I claimed he was a werewolf was priceless.

I was worried that someone was sitting heavy on the Seer role, and just waiting for someone else to lie about it. But my intuition was right: the Seer was buried in the middle.

One Night Ultimate Werewolf is an absolute blast, because it creates situations like this. I like regular Ultimate Werewolf plenty, but this is definitely in the top tier of suspicion games for groups of 6-10.
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30 Jul 2014 16:23 #183525 by dragonstout
Hmmmmm........should I just not be playing it with 5, then?

We really had most of our games ending up just having one of the "special" roles in use (i.e. not in the center); after that person revealed their information, there were still three unknown people, so picking the werewolf out of those three, EVEN given "perfect information" in a way (i.e. no one was lying except for obviously the werewolf claiming to be a villager), was a crapshoot.

In literally every single one of our games, actually, if every human just told the truth about all the information they had and the werewolves never made any outrageous lies, the humans were still not at good odds to win; I guess that's what I mean by "not enough information to go on", as the werewolves didn't need to lie or do anything. The POTENTIALLY clever moves we saw as possible with the game, like San Il Defanso's move, tended to mostly be when the Robber switched with a wolf, the Seer saw a wolf, the Troublemaker swapped a wolf with a villager, none of which happened in any of our games, and which all seemed pretty unlikely.

About charlest's tip to say "I'm the robber, but I'm not going to tell you who I swapped with": if you swapped with a werewolf, is it to your benefit to say this?

Is there any benefit to claiming you're the robber if you're a vanilla villager? Is there any benefit to claiming you're the seer if you're a vanilla villager? We didn't see much benefit in either of these; the only role it seemed beneficial to claim was the Troublemaker. But then the problem is, according to charlest's advice, once you've established who the real troublemaker is you should back off. As a result, there's *nothing* left for a vanilla villager to really do.

We had one game where the Seer looked in the middle, and confirmed that there was no Troublemaker, and the game just died in that very instant.

Now, of course, you DO have more explicit information than in normal Werewolf...so why don't I complain that there's not enough to go on in normal Werewolf? It's all about the time difference: ONUW doesn't allow enough time to establish patterns within a game, to really observe someone lying/telling the truth over the course of an hour. It's that roughly-hour-length that Werewolf has that, I feel, gives us enough information to go on; if you rush the day phases in normal Werewolf, then it once again feels like we have no psychological, behavioral meat to go on.

Anyway, I really WANT the game to be as good as folks say, because we LOVE Resistance/Werewolf/Coup/Hoax/BSG/Skull&Roses. We'll be giving it more tries, keeping y'all's advice in mind.

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30 Jul 2014 16:28 #183526 by charlest
Some more tips:

-If you're the Hunter, never reveal what you are right away. Claim Villager or even lie and say you are the Troublemaker in the beginning (or Seer or whatever). You don't care if you die so it doesn't matter if people don't trust you. By waiting to claim Hunter until the end, you give the Wolves an opportunity to make a huge fuck up and lie and say they are the Hunter (NEVER do this as a Wolf). If someone lies and says they are Hunter, now you're good. You should have no trouble convincing the group to lynch you, telling them you will lynch the other Hunter. Although, if you're also paying with Minion or Tanner this doesn't work.


In reply to Dragonstout's Insomniac comment, the Insomniac is great because it's a slight buff to the good guys but can occasionally have a large effect on the game. You know whether you were Robbed or Troublemaker'd which is enormous. The fun that can be had if you see your card and realize the Troublemaker swapped you with a Wolf.

Your comment about the roles only being useful when there's intersection between the roles is spot on, the issue is that you should always be in doubt whether there is intersection between the roles or not because the Troublemaker should be lying through his teeth. As the Insomniac, you can tell if he's lying if he says he switched you but your role wasn't changed. If he says he swapped two other players and your role didn't change, that tells you a lot. He's telling the truth, or close to it, it also means the Robber interacted in some way with those other players. It's like crossing suspects off a list.

The Insomniac, like the Drunk, really should be thought of as a Villager+ that adds another layer to the game. They're not the core roles like the Troublemaker, Robber, and Seer.
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30 Jul 2014 16:35 - 30 Jul 2014 16:35 #183528 by charlest

dragonstout wrote: Hmmmmm........should I just not be playing it with 5, then?

We really had most of our games ending up just having one of the "special" roles in use (i.e. not in the center); after that person revealed their information, there were still three unknown people, so picking the werewolf out of those three, EVEN given "perfect information" in a way (i.e. no one was lying except for obviously the werewolf claiming to be a villager), was a crapshoot.

In literally every single one of our games, actually, if every human just told the truth about all the information they had and the werewolves never made any outrageous lies, the humans were still not at good odds to win; I guess that's what I mean by "not enough information to go on", as the werewolves didn't need to lie or do anything. The POTENTIALLY clever moves we saw as possible with the game, like San Il Defanso's move, tended to mostly be when the Robber switched with a wolf, the Seer saw a wolf, the Troublemaker swapped a wolf with a villager, none of which happened in any of our games, and which all seemed pretty unlikely.


Your group sounds like they aren't lying enough. It is advantageous for the good guys to lie. You do need to tell the truth eventually (although not always) but there should always be lies spread to try and trick the Wolves into outing themselves. That seems to be the key thing your group isn't quite doing.

Also, 5 is fine (although I'd recommend trying to get some bigger games as well to see stuff like the Masons/Minion/Tanner/Doppelganger and it will get crazy).

About charlest's tip to say "I'm the robber, but I'm not going to tell you who I swapped with": if you swapped with a werewolf, is it to your benefit to say this?

Probably not, unless everyone at the table thinks like you and I are thinking - then yes, do it. People will think you're good. That's manipulating the metagame to your advantage.

Is there any benefit to claiming you're the robber if you're a vanilla villager? Is there any benefit to claiming you're the seer if you're a vanilla villager? We didn't see much benefit in either of these; the only role it seemed beneficial to claim was the Troublemaker. But then the problem is, according to charlest's advice, once you've established who the real troublemaker is you should back off. As a result, there's *nothing* left for a vanilla villager to really do.

You can lie and claim any role as the Villager, and if someone calls you out, you can sometimes (not always) be reasonably sure they are telling the truth. That is information that is helpful.

You can also lie and say you are the Robber a minute or so into the game if the Robber is being quiet. Just throw out lies, particularly about people you are suspicious of and see how they react. That's a huge part of the game. Just be sure to back off the lie when called out, as you do not want to waste time with the good guys fighting.

We had one game where the Seer looked in the middle, and confirmed that there was no Troublemaker, and the game just died in that very instant.


Oh man, this here is wrong. The Seer should have claimed to be the Troublemaker! Think about it, that's insanely powerful because he now has the power of two roles (the power of the Troublemaker isn't the actual switch) and no one can say he is lying.
Last edit: 30 Jul 2014 16:35 by charlest.
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30 Jul 2014 16:50 #183530 by Bull Nakano
Also the robber and troublemaker are optional actions. I've caught wolves as the troublemaker and not swapping anyone but claiming I had.
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30 Jul 2014 16:59 #183532 by charlest

Bull Nakano wrote: Also the robber and troublemaker are optional actions. I've caught wolves as the troublemaker and not swapping anyone but claiming I had.


True, but you should always perform the Robber action. There is no incentive to refrain from switching and you will also have less fun because you are denying the spread of information.

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31 Jul 2014 07:27 #183561 by ratpfink

charlest wrote: It is advantageous for the good guys to lie.


Yup. Partly because you probably don't know what team you are are on, so you need to cover your bases in case you got switched to the wolf team. And partly because you are using up available "claiming space" so that the "bad guys"(other team) are less willing to use it. If I'm pretty sure I'm on the village team I will claim at least one role that is not my own so that the wolf team will be less likely to also claim it and have fewer places to hide.

I've played this a lot, and only recommendations I have that haven't been said are to not use the basic role set of 3 villagers once everyone is comfortable with the rules. If your group is not as willing to go crazy with the lying, then at least having roles that do things will force a little more activity into the game. I probably prefer to have 1 villager most of the time. Doppleganger is great fun...

For the Lone Wolf option we typically change it up to mean "look at cards in the middle until you see a non-wolf card" since there is no difference between not using that option and looking at the wolf card you already know is in the middle.

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31 Jul 2014 08:44 #183563 by charlest

ratpfink wrote:

charlest wrote: It is advantageous for the good guys to lie.


For the Lone Wolf option we typically change it up to mean "look at cards in the middle until you see a non-wolf card" since there is no difference between not using that option and looking at the wolf card you already know is in the middle.


If the Drunk is in play then knowing which card is a Wolf definitely is helpful.

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31 Jul 2014 12:59 #183577 by Bull Nakano

charlest wrote:

ratpfink wrote:

charlest wrote: It is advantageous for the good guys to lie.


For the Lone Wolf option we typically change it up to mean "look at cards in the middle until you see a non-wolf card" since there is no difference between not using that option and looking at the wolf card you already know is in the middle.


If the Drunk is in play then knowing which card is a Wolf definitely is helpful.

Because I was the seer and I looked at two and I'm sorry but you picked a wolf and we have to kill you.
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31 Jul 2014 18:55 #183601 by ratpfink

charlest wrote:

ratpfink wrote:

charlest wrote: It is advantageous for the good guys to lie.


For the Lone Wolf option we typically change it up to mean "look at cards in the middle until you see a non-wolf card" since there is no difference between not using that option and looking at the wolf card you already know is in the middle.


If the Drunk is in play then knowing which card is a Wolf definitely is helpful.

I'm drunk... how can you expect me to remember which of the cards I picked?

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31 Jul 2014 20:13 #183604 by charlest

ratpfink wrote:

charlest wrote:

ratpfink wrote:

charlest wrote: It is advantageous for the good guys to lie.


For the Lone Wolf option we typically change it up to mean "look at cards in the middle until you see a non-wolf card" since there is no difference between not using that option and looking at the wolf card you already know is in the middle.


If the Drunk is in play then knowing which card is a Wolf definitely is helpful.

I'm drunk... how can you expect me to remember which of the cards I picked?


Because your life depends on it.

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