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Revisiting: Descent Second Edition
SU&SD like it, Rab likes it, Drake called it better than Warhammer Quest for goddsakes. And co-op rules for the base game are reportedly out.
More than those who hate Descent (we know who you are cough cough Barnes) or hate FFG in general (we know which FATTies those are too) anyone like or gasp love this system? enough to be on board for spansions as much as the oft discussed Netrunner, Xwing, etc?
ERP guys, let's not turn this into a Fuck FFG rant.
- a dispatch from A.R.M. nukular sub headquarters
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My first campaign was 2 players with 4 heroes. Finished in under 1 week. 2 players is best, since it's easier to just get one other person to commit to the campaign.
I'm still looking for that fabled dungeon crawler though...
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There's more game to it I feel than Warhammer Quest (which sucks, face it) and Hero Quest.
The DM-less rules, it sounds like will be getting a complete expansion box instead of these little PoD and Game Night expansions so far which is awesome. Where I read that though? I can't remember...I did a lot of my GenCon reading late night so I may have imagined it.
The guys around my shop have been threatening starting up a campaign soon.
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VonTush is right, that it is more of a race than exploration game. Having to make constant efficiency decisions sort of knocks me out of any immersion in the crawl experience.
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The best explanation of why Descent 2E ended up sucking, by far, is the I've Been Diced podcast on the subject; anything I'd say would just be repeating their excellent observations:
[url=I thought it was an actual terrible game, and this is from someone who got MANY hours of incredible enjoyment out of Descent 1E, but was eager to see it streamlined nonetheless. The best explanation of why Descent 2E ended up sucking, by far, is the I've Been Diced podcast on the subject; anything I'd say would just be repeating their excellent observations: http://ivebeendiced.blogspot.com/2013/03/ive-been-diced-episode-43-descent-into.html]I've Been Diced - Descent 2E[/url]
The problem is not that it's a race game or a tactical game per se, but that it's a boring one, with intrinsic problems; examples of intrinsic problems include the freedom of the DM to choose monster groups, thereby allowing for the encounters to be REALLY absolutely broken in EITHER side's favor; this is touched on well in the above podcast. People who say "the balance is fine, obviously, because people equally complain that the overlord is too powerful as that the players are too powerful!" are full of absolute shit; the scenarios, especially with particular monster combinations, skew extremely toward one side or the other, but that does not just "balance out"; instead, every game is FRUSTRATING. As described in the above podcast, it's even frustrating when you're WINNING.
Another excellent point gotten at in that podcast is: you don't really care about dying. No, for real, "dying" feels like a speedbump; at a bare minimum, no one would claim that "staying alive" is a top priority. There's no sense of progression in an encounter. The encounters are decided within the first turn, but then take many more turns to play out. Anyway, just listen to the podcast (the first 25 minutes or so).
Every game we played of Descent 2E was literally worse than the worst game we ever played of Descent 1E.
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It's possible, but in our experience it was more clearly felt with the monsters. In any case, the same being true of the heroes would just be more of a negative.VonTush wrote: Couldn't the same be said about the group of Heroes? That mix as well could grossly balance or unbalance the game?
Just in case anyone misunderstands: when I talk about "balance" here, I'm not saying that I want it to be equally matched between the heroes and villains, which is basically never true in this kind of game. I'm just looking for enough balance for there to be some kind of contest, where the multi-hour game is not effectively decided within the first 10 minutes.
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dragonstout wrote: People who say "the balance is fine, obviously, because people equally complain that the overlord is too powerful as that the players are too powerful!" are full of absolute shit; the scenarios, especially with particular monster combinations, skew extremely toward one side or the other, but that does not just "balance out"; instead, every game is FRUSTRATING. As described in the above podcast, it's even frustrating when you're WINNING.
I have this problem with Memoir 44 (obvious thread derail, sorry) - some of the scenarios are so hopelessly unbalanced that its shite to play either side, yet still the number of people who will argue till they are blue in the face that taking turns to play each side "balances it" is unbelievable. I don't see any fun in a 2 round fight where you each have one round to kick the other one in the balls and he can't do anything and then vice versa in the next round. Thats not balanced, its just boring.
back on topic, I'm guessing thats what you mean here, or along those lines?
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scissors wrote: The mystery to me then, is why 11,600 people own it (BGG numbers ) and why so many people like it as much as they do.
Cause really and truly it is a good game. There are some quirks, no doubt on that. It is challenging for both sides and creates some interesting decisions to make both in game and between games.
For my money it is the best attempt at a dungeon crawl with some character advancement, a connected and narrative campaign system and a dungeon lord role that is engaging rather than just controlling massive spawns of monsters whose purpose are to be cut down by heroes to give them experience.
There are so many elements going on here that you almost have to expect balance to be out of whack at times. This isn't a premapped scenario like Memoir '44...This is a combination of Heroes, Selected Hero Powers, Monster Mix, Overlord Cards and the scenario itself that needs to come into balance.
It isn't a game for all people, but for those looking for a Dungeon Crawl that has some tactical and strategic choices its pretty damn good.
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I really enjoy the "complete package" even within the base game. 4 character archetypes with 2 classes each, just enough amount of monsters, and that campaign...
The overall feeling I get from the game is good. It flows well eve with its quirks (diagonal movement & LoS through corner intersection), it plays with little fuss. You can find a LOT of conflicting abilities & timing, but in general I keep those in line by having me as the final word (just can't believe those FFG guys that took over after the original designer left).
The tiles are great, you get to whack monsters too. While it can be a race game, I didn't feel it that way, at least not all the time.
The game is mainly a resource planning (your action) with awesome visual presentation. It's not that much of a "meaningful decision game", but that actually gives us the chance to enjoy the theme.
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I'm really not able to comment on it much besides the fact that I did really enjoy it, and grasped it much easier than the big game. I would like to revisit it eventually.
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It's a complete mystery to me, too! I feel like we were playing different games...which is I think the solution to the mystery. With a different set of monsters, in a different scenario, with different heroes, you might get an entirely different game; or at least, you might sometimes get the game as it SHOULD work, and sometimes you get "oops, the overlord uses Charge to put a dragon in the hallway on the first turn, and from there on the heroes just slowly hack at it each turn, while the Overlord hides the speedy monsters behind the dragon and on his turn they pop through the dragon, whack a hero, and then pop back behind; rinse and repeat for a couple hours (this is even more 'fun' if the monsters behind the dragon are flesh molders or whatever, so they can also be healing the dragon)".scissors wrote: The mystery to me then, is why 11,600 people own it (BGG numbers ) and why so many people like it as much as they do.
I don't get it. Does this kind of thing not happen in the Descent-lovers' games? If not, why the hell not?
Really, anyone thinking about getting this game NEEDS to listen to that podcast, as it's the only place where I've seen my exact experience with Descent 2.0 described to a tee (that, and mjl1783's comments on here warning us all not to get it). And I really, really wanted to like it.
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