Blood Bowl TM with all 4 leagues

I've been converting some people to Blood Bowl Team Manager recently. I have both expansions, so all 4 leagues are in play, but haven't included the enchanted balls, penalties, stadia, and corrupt ref yet because there's been at least one new person for each game. I've played every team in the game at least once by now and it's interesting how some of them function well based on turn order and others function no matter where they are.

It seems that most of the teams based on tackling and/or injuring (Dwarves, Orcs, Vampires, Chaos Dwarves) suffer when earlier in the turn rotation because of a lack of good targets or any targets, whereas the teams that rely on passing and/or sprinting (Wood Elves, Skaven, Dark Elves, Goblins) can open or follow with a solid amount of success because they have enough blitzers or heavies to respond or abilities that compensate (like the Dark Elves' regaining the ball after they're tackled.) The versatile teams or those that rely on cheating (Humans, Chaos, Undead, Nurgle) benefit from that versatility as far as turn order, but also benefit from the fact that cheating has become less risky with each expansion, as the token pool seems to have been diluted. You still end up with 0s or 1s but ejections seem to be less frequent. Might just be RNGesus favoring the cheaters. It will also change somewhat when we add in the penalty cheating tokens (but which will definitely lower the number of ejections.)

The team that suffers the most from the tackling problem is Vampires, since they lack the star power to frequently make successful tackles in the first place, but are also utterly reliant on other players being downed already in order to gather blood tokens, since they don't have a double tackle player on the team or abilities like Trample of the Bull Centaur in the Chaos Dwarves. I've won with Vampires before, but I don't remember how I did it, since no one else has even come close to winning with them. They have great star players, if they can get them.

The thing I like best about the new expansion is the different methods of play introduced by two of the teams: Nurgle and Goblins. Many of the Rotters put disease tokens (-1 star power) at midfield when they're played to a highlight. That instantly produces hesitation from any other player about approaching that highlight (in this way, Nurgle probably benefits from going earlier in the turn order to enable you to drop one Nurgle Warrior (3*, tackling, disease) on a highlight and basically ignore it from there on out, since no one will want to drop a 3 there only to lose or a 4 there only to match.

Goblins, while seriously lacking in star power, also have a host of different abilities that make up for that deficit (often directly, like Stunty, which makes them equal in star power if someone tries to tackle them.) The Goblins take serious thought to play and you might have to play them a couple times before you get the hang of both them and how they relate to the other teams.

The Chaos Dwarves are interesting, but they don't introduce anything particularly transformative like the other two.

I ran the Vampires once and ended up winning because of Staff Card I got on the first or second turn that allowed me to pick a match up and gain a fan per Cheat Token there. Plus I was the veteran at the table as well, so that gave me an edge.

Most of the extra stuff the expansions add I haven't played with, mainly because like you I've usually had a new player at the table. I've used the Contracts because those are easy to work in and I like how they add a bit of a mystery element at the end of the game. But the Ref, Stadiums and Magical Balls...Haven't used and to be honest, I'm not in a rush. I am looking to use the Penalties sooner rather than later though.

One thing I was thinking about was putting the teams in some Tiers like they do with the board version to give some guidance as to what teams are better for Rookies and which ones take a little more skill and more suited for Veterans. In my last game a guy drew Dark Elf for his first game and was struggling and looking back I should have given him a different team.

Great synopsis Jackwraith!

I've incorporated the enchanted balls because everyone at the table enjoys saying, "enchanted balls." The contracts are easy enough - so they made the cut as well. Corrupt ref is next, and maybe, MAYBE, I'll introduce the stadiums.

I just "pimped" my BBTM play area with a green shelf liner from Velcro. 20 x 72", it cost five bucks at Wally world and keeps every card from accidentally shifting.

VonTush wrote: One thing I was thinking about was putting the teams in some Tiers like they do with the board version to give some guidance as to what teams are better for Rookies and which ones take a little more skill and more suited for Veterans. In my last game a guy drew Dark Elf for his first game and was struggling and looking back I should have given him a different team.

Sort of a Cosmic system?

To my embarrassment, I haven't played Cosmic.
It seems like every time I introduce the game to someone they randomly draw a Running/Passing team which always require a bit more finesse than some of the bruisers.

VonTush wrote: I ran the Vampires once and ended up winning because of Staff Card I got on the first or second turn that allowed me to pick a match up and gain a fan per Cheat Token there.

Yeah, the new guy who was playing the Vampires in our second game last night got that one and it did help quite a bit for his total, but I was playing the Undead, so... (OP! OP! OP!)

VonTush wrote: Plus I was the veteran at the table as well, so that gave me an edge.

Without a doubt. I was telling them after our games were finished that my baseline strategy is to look for Star Players in the first couple rounds and then just hit fans and contracts from then on out UNLESS I pick up a good Staff Upgrade or Team Upgrade that really bends me in another direction. But the other part of it is familiarity with the cards so that you know which upgrades will actually work.

VonTush wrote: I've used the Contracts because those are easy to work in and I like how they add a bit of a mystery element at the end of the game. But the Ref, Stadiums and Magical Balls...Haven't used and to be honest, I'm not in a rush. I am looking to use the Penalties sooner rather than later though.

Right. We use contracts for the same reason, although I"m starting to wonder about the amount of "gotcha!" they bring to the game, as I've seen people play well and be in the lead only for someone who stumbled on a couple contracts pull out a win. I guess that furthers the argument to go for contracts and I can see why they were added, as they give players another scoring method to aim for in the last couple rounds instead of getting stuck with highlights that give nothing but players or upgrades that won't have enough impact. We're definitely adding Penalties next time.

VonTush wrote: One thing I was thinking about was putting the teams in some Tiers like they do with the board version to give some guidance as to what teams are better for Rookies and which ones take a little more skill and more suited for Veterans. In my last game a guy drew Dark Elf for his first game and was struggling and looking back I should have given him a different team.

Good thought. Maybe three tiers?
Tier I (Novice): Human, Skaven, Undead, Orcs
Tier II (Journeyman): Wood Elf, Chaos, Nurgle, Dark Elf
Tier III (Veteran): Vampires, Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves, Goblins

VonTush wrote: To my embarrassment, I haven't played Cosmic. [/quote

Our entire relationship has been a lie.

Michael Barnes wrote:

VonTush wrote: To my embarrassment, I haven't played Cosmic.

Our entire relationship has been a lie.

Well, I did play the Avalon Hill version with two players once because the box said we could. But I don't count that.

Jackwraith wrote: Good thought. Maybe three tiers?
Tier I (Novice): Human, Skaven, Undead, Orcs
Tier II (Journeyman): Wood Elf, Chaos, Nurgle, Dark Elf
Tier III (Veteran): Vampires, Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves, Goblins

That's looking about right.
I might flip Skaven and Chaos. The Ball Control and Deck Management with the Running/Passing skill is usually what I find throws people off. Chaos is pretty straight forward of bash and smash.

VonTush wrote:

Michael Barnes wrote:

VonTush wrote: To my embarrassment, I haven't played Cosmic.

Our entire relationship has been a lie.

Well, I did play the Avalon Hill version with two players once because the box said we could. But I don't count that.

That's like the negotiation version of Win, Lose, Banana.

"We're going to play Negotiate, right? RIGHT?"
"Definitely, we're BOTH going to win."



"I'm going to burn your cat and shit on your windshield."

Last time I played the Vampire team, and had my worst score ever. In hindsight, I think they're a terrible team, everything hinges on injuring the enemy (edit: or their thralls), but the double-tap needed is hard to get. Injuring your own players isn't that great, and they don't even start with a SP4 player.

Sure, their star players are nice, but they're also available to the DE and Undead and not guaranteed to end up with their own team.

My brother also had the staff card that gives a fan per cheat token, and he combined it with a SP who added cheat tokens to every player at the match-up...brutal combo. He still came in second place with Undead vs. DE, but it was really close between them.

Can't wait to try the Chaos Dwarfs, that expansion is still unplayed, hopefully not for long.

Man, I want to play this game.

I have won with the vampires, but it was against someone trying out the goblin deck for the second (I think) time. I didn't ever get to use the blood tokens, as people noted, getting that tackling combo achieved is difficult. Added to a staff upgrade that gave fans for downed players, my deck was fighting my bonuses. It's a tough gig, but I like that there's this matrix of easy/difficult to play/win with the teams.

Of course, I've played undead and never rolled a regen almost all game (even with the relevant team upgrades) so it can swing.

This is a great game, I think the theme* is what turns a lot of potential players off. Now I have Dogs of War as a gateway drug, though, so that may work out.

*setting.

JEM wrote: This is a great game, I think the theme* is what turns a lot of potential players off.

*setting.

This is not a world I want to live in.

Damn, I didn't realize this game was getting played so frequently that people can get that deep into it.

I've played maybe half a dozen times. Hated, hated, hated it. Big fan of real BloodBowl so I wanted to love on it so hard. But the gameplay was just so frustrating for me and I always lost really badly. Almost got to the point where I would refuse to play it but my buddies like it.

But we played with a new expansion and I got to be Goblins, which are my favorite. I still lost horribly but I actually enjoyed it this time. I just wish it was a little easier to play for what it is. I'll play some heavy games but for some reason I prefer my heavy games without theme. When I'm playing a goblin with a chainsaw, I'm not looking to think too much. Just wanna roll some dice.

Do you think the game would be completely broken if you took out team upgrades and coaching upgrades? Just made them worth one fan factor each?