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Describe Your Grail Game

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26 Dec 2014 12:22 #193341 by Shellhead
Tell us about a boardgame that doesn't exist yet that you hope to play some day.

For me, it would be a boardgame based on the Amber series, by Roger Zelazny. For those who haven't read it, the Amber series features a large, dysfunctional family of machiavellian superhumans with the innate ability to travel to alternate realities. Their home reality is at a medieval level of technology with magic, but the Amberites are able to travel to other realms where more advanced technology works, including our own planet Earth. The Amberites can also communicate with another and even travel through mystic tarot cards depicting family members and various locations.

A satisfactory Amber game would allow for plenty of direct player interaction, including alliances, betrayals and deal-making. It should have a board or at least some way of offering various modes of travel between the various realities. It should also include cards because fans of the books would absolutely expect some level of cardplay in an Amber game. Ideally the game would allow for a variety of conflicts between characters, including swordfights, psionic combat, sorcerous duels, and battling armies/navies. There should also be enough flavor to the art to convey the variety of settings that the characters can travel to during the game.

Why doesn't this game exist? Zelazny died in 1995, and apparently his estate is controlled by his ex-wife, who is uninterested in licensing out the Amber setting for games. There was an interesting diceless rpg published in '91 with Zelazny's blessing, and apparently there was a boardgame in development in the mid-'80s that never saw publication due to the execessive quantity of components. Given the modern success of various component-heavy games, it seems plausible that the '80s Amber game could somehow be published now in a cost-effective way, but WestEnd Games instead turned it into their TORG rpg back in the day, and now they don't have the Amber license anymore.

Other than Amber, I would like to see a better boardgame on each of the following topics: kung fu, cyberpunk, superheroes, and zombies. Every published game on those topics that I have tried so far has been somewhat disappointing.

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26 Dec 2014 12:54 #193343 by charlest
I'm not asking for much, just for Nate Hayden to design a Blood Meridian game with existential and surreal atmosphere.
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26 Dec 2014 13:31 #193344 by Sagrilarus
An Amber game would require a modular board, endpoints established with the space in the middle to be filled.

S.

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26 Dec 2014 15:26 #193350 by Jackwraith
As much as I'd like to see it, I think a decent Amber boardgame would be next to impossible. The nature of Shadow makes it only really viable as an RPG, IMO. I played a friend's creation based on Amber back in the 80s and later made one of my own and also played TORG. I love the Amber novels, but I just don't see it becoming a decent game because of the insane complexity to the possibilities of worlds. I think it would kind of defy the nature of the books in the first place.

I'm not sure that I have a grail game (other than finding a copy of Yeoman at a decent price.) Most of the stories and backgrounds that I like (such as Amber) don't seem really adaptable to a boardgame.

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26 Dec 2014 16:37 #193351 by Shellhead
The challenge to an Amber game would be to find the right level of focus to capture the theme without getting bogged down in the details. That's probably true of any thematic boardgame, but particularly for Amber where there are theoretically infinite possibilities.

To get more specific, let's talk about locations. At the minimum, an Amber game would need at least one location representing Amber. Do we just call it Amber and stop there? Or do we need multiple Amber locations that include the Castle, Tir'na Nog'th, and the Primal Pattern? What about the dungeon or the library? And then how about the Shadows? Do we only use named ones from the books? Or should there also be generic ones reflecting other kinds of possible settings? How many Shadows, knowing that the answer must be something much lower than infinity?

This carries over to other aspects of a potential game. Should the game have specific available actions to simulate every cool thing that happened in the books? Or should the game restrict those possibilities to only if you have the right cards in hand? Or should the level of play zoom out somewhat, to classify a variety of similar actions into basic categories.

Here are links to three attempts to design an Amber game, none of which have official licensing:

boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/31979/all-roads-lead-amber
atroll.wordpress.com/category/amber-card-game/
www.angelfire.com/games2/warpspawn/Amber.html

There are things that I like and dislike about each of these designs. And I find myself craving one of those ten-suit Badger decks, though I couldn't find any for sale online. Just seems like a very handy thing to have for game design and miscellaneous fun.

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26 Dec 2014 18:08 - 26 Dec 2014 18:10 #193352 by OldHippy
Setting: It would be a futuristic, totalitarian world not unlike the one shown in Brazil or Brave New World. It would be sci-fi fantasy (weird fantasy not just hacker elves etc like in Shadowrun...)... I'm thinking something kind of like Transmetropolitan. You would control a character who is trying to topple this regime which, ideally, would have parallels with our own world and our own troubles both politically and spiritually. Not pure escapism but something with relevance to our own struggles. In your quest to topple this regime you would have several options and would probably put together a small group of people to help you, like a gang or something.

Ideally this would be a unique world all it's own, creative and not overly derivative. I don't want someone else's IP at all, I don't want someone to translate X world into a game for me and I want it to be original and of it's own devising and created specifically for gaming.

Android sounded like it was trying, I never played it because a number of idea's sounded like they were too close to what I wanted but only close enough to tease me.

End game could be a successful revolution or coup or the death of all the major characters. The competition would be that the different players had different goals. So while I might be fighting for a more socialist government or a more open system you might be fighting for a theocratic or capitalistic system. So we would be at odds. Perhaps there would be a possibility of sharing a lessor victory if two sides fulfilled certain conditions that let their individual groups agree long enough to overthrow the government.

I would love to see it address social and political issues in a reasonably adult way while also focusing mainly on fun (you'd need a good dose or irreverence to pull this off I think). Hopefully it wouldn't take forever to play but I think for the theme and setting to truly breath you would need at least ninety minutes and more than likely a hundred and twenty.
Last edit: 26 Dec 2014 18:10 by OldHippy.
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26 Dec 2014 20:17 #193353 by Sevej
Replied by Sevej on topic Re: Describe Your Grail Game
A sandbox solo/co-op tactical game set in a dystopian sci-fi city. You can play as police, mercenary, ganger or corporate goon. Game is played as a dynamic campaign, with a specified start and end, but varying middle part. Encounters are not limited on combat, with various type of civilians.

3D terrain with multi-level buildings, but streamlined movement and LoS rules. Possibly with glowing neon sign and animated billboards. Should have streets, crossing bridges, street overpass, etc.

A combat mechanic that focus on suppression and movement instead of focus fire. Hacking a building from hacking nodes. An airduct/maintenance way system providing alternate entrance for cyber ninjas.

Actions may affect relationship with other factions and may affect missions.
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26 Dec 2014 22:49 #193355 by Hatchling
I'd like a two-player card-driven game like Twilight Struggle or Labyrinth themed around a difficult labour strike. The logistics of maintaining (or breaking) picket lines, competition for support from the public, external political groups becoming involved -- all would be going one while there's also a contract to negotiate with the other side, poker/bluffing, brinkmanship, a ticking clock of financial costs on both sides. It'd be especially cool if both sides had to manage their own internal splits and factions, and that became increasingly difficult as the game progressed. I don't think I'd want it based on a real historical strike because that might be too depressing, but something on the complex dynamics would be super interesting.

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26 Dec 2014 23:37 #193359 by metalface13
Great thread!

One of my imaginary grail games would also be an Amber themed game as already discussed.

Another would be based on another of Roger Zelazny's books, "A Night in the Lonesome October." It's a bit of a ritual that I read this book every october. The plot is a who's who of gothic horror and Victorian literary characters who struggle against one another in attempt to destroy or save the world on a full moon on Halloween. It's got Jack the Ripper, Sherlock Holmes, a witch, a knock-off of Rasputin, Dracula and more. The book features all kinds of hidden information. The "players" in the "game" as they are called in the book are "Openers" and "Closers" and amass certain ritual objects as well as ingredients and spells throughout the month of October before the cosmic struggle takes place on Halloween. A Study in Emerald (the game) and Shadow Hunters are probably already close enough to what I'm imagining as a game, but still every time I read the book I think about what a great board game it would be.

Yet another grail game for me would be a Football Manager style board game. A game about professional soccer teams where you draft players, decide formations and tactics and play out a season. A major hurdle for this kind of game would be licensing. Soccer fans would love to play as where there club loyalties lay, but it's harder to get excited about Generic City FC. Also I'm not entirely sure how this would play out, a regular season involves up to 20 teams and 38 matches. Maybe it would need to be a tournament like the Champions League? I guess what I have in mind would be some sort of mash up between Blood Bowl Team Manager, Slapshot and The World Cup games.

Lastly, a Necromunda-style game but on a board. I've actually thought about printing up some tiles and testing this idea out. I imagine the setting would be gangs of scavengers in space fighting over drifting dreadnaughts and space hulks.

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27 Dec 2014 00:25 #193360 by Not Sure
I want Sevej's game. Or JonJacob's. Maybe they're the same game.

Here's my distilled take on it: "I want Christian Marcussen to do a cyberpunk game."

Or "Thrilling Tales of Adventure", that'd be good. There doesn't seem to be a really good pulp adventure games. The Adventurers looks great, and is fun for what it is, but I always want more depth (I own both of them, and the painted minis...). I never played Fortune and Glory, but it seems to have landed with a thud.

I have Android still, and it's 2/3rds of a masterpiece and 2/3rds garbage. Maybe even a few more thirds jammed in there.

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27 Dec 2014 11:30 #193368 by Matt Thrower
I've been wishing all these years for a competitive adventure game with some depth of strategy, a sense of wonder, variety and exploration, a great setting and narrative, and which can be taught and played to completion in less than three hours.

Mage Knight checks most of those boxes, but blows the last one so badly that it only very rarely gets played. I'm still waiting.
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27 Dec 2014 12:09 #193372 by Gary Sax
^less exhausting Magic Realm.

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27 Dec 2014 13:24 #193376 by Cranberries

MattDP wrote: I've been wishing all these years for a competitive adventure game with some depth of strategy, a sense of wonder, variety and exploration, a great setting and narrative, and which can be taught and played to completion in less than three hours.

Mage Knight checks most of those boxes, but blows the last one so badly that it only very rarely gets played. I'm still waiting.


It seems like Duel of Ages II circles around some of these points. I wish DoA had a better theme, like an adaption of Philip Jose Farmer's Riverworld

My grail game criteria:

1. Plays 1-6
2. Rich theme
3. Simple enough to teach in 15 minutes, but rich narrative depth
4. Something like Earth Reborn that I could teach to strangers in fifteen minutes, and would somehow appeal to my daugthers (10 and 13). So it would be a little less dark in theme, but not silly.
5. Have a political element among players, like Angola
6. Cool minis
7. <$100

I want some kind of a mix of Duel of Ages and Earth Reborn, with a strong theme behind it.

Also, a boardgame based on the book Wolf Hall, which I finally read after ignoring it because it looked boring, for several years. Maybe A Cruel Necessity fills this.

Another grail game: Something as easy to teach as No Thanks, but with more depth and an Adventure Time or Homestuck theme so my kids will play.

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27 Dec 2014 22:12 - 27 Dec 2014 22:22 #193396 by Mr. White
This will seem odd, but I'm starting to think my grail games already came out, but the downside is...they're all oop.

Just finishing a BB league and doing a little more role-playing, I find I really miss the character/faction building of the 90's GW boxed games:

ManOWar
Blood Bowl
Mordheim
Necromunda
BattleFleetGothic

Playing these in the 90's through early 00's were easily the best gaming I've done. The boxes allowed us to play in the Warhammer universes without dropping a mint. Oddly enough though, I probably did. I bought so many warhammer figs to convert to BB teams, mordheim warbands, etc. That, and for very faction I played, I'd buy an army book/codex so I could get into the background. Even read a novel or two. So, these games allowed GW to take _a_lot_ of my money. Not sure why they discontinued them all...

Sadly, these games are long gone and the base sets and minis are all expensive. I could buy some on the after market, but it's not the same.

So, where I am right now, a grail game would be for GW to put one of these out again or something like it.

True, there are lots of other skirmish games, but I guess I'm skeptical on their shelf life and quality, and I doubt they even have half of the world building in place.

As it stands, I just came into a 2nd ed Dark Elf BB team. I've never actually played DE in anything, so I'm considering converting up a DE warband as well (got a Mordheim terrain builder in the group) and likely, I'll buy an older edition Dark Elf army book (older edition books - I prefer 3rd thru 5th - go for a song) to read some fluff.

This'll be fun, but I'd like for there to be something that's forward facing as well. I'll continue to play BB and Mordheim, but I don't want to only game the past.

EDIT: Games like BB:TM, CitoW, Warhammer Invasion, etc are fine, but they aren't the same at all. There's no personalizing there. Guess I'm longing for the minis...to paint.... ugh!
Last edit: 27 Dec 2014 22:22 by Mr. White.

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27 Dec 2014 22:58 #193398 by VonTush
I'd like a campaign based game that is balanced in the long run not a rich get richer scenario, have people get butt-hurt when their character dies and doesn't require the same people playing every time.

Mr White - Take a look at what Cool Mini or Not are doing. I grew up on those games you listed and what CMoN is doing really brings me back to that time and the GW design style of that period.

Rivet Wars is cool because you don't build an army at the beginning but each turn you get points to buy and deploy units. Arcadia Quest you build a team of three characters and do some light campaign and character development with them. Kaosball I'm looking to get in on sooner rather than later.

There are some downsides to CMoN though. There's a lot you miss if you miss the KS campaign and they take forever to have expansions hit the secondary market.

They also don't hit on the campaign style games like Necromunda, Mordheim or BB. But those are also the reasons for my first line in this post. But I feel they have a similar design philosophy to GW back in those days.

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