Scoundrels

I personally don't like miniatures. If they're not painted (and I sure as shit am not going to paint them) then they're just an ugly blob of plastic on a board. If they are painted, then usually the cost increases for something that to me makes zero difference. I don't play miniatures games and if a game touts the quality of its minis, even if it's not a minis game, I automatically assume that's the emphasis here and stop reading about the game itself.

Arkham Horror looks really classy with its stand-ups, and that used to be what the cognoscenti were looking for, an "elegant" execution. Now stand-ups are considered second-tier regardless of art. They're replaced instead with pounds, with the sheer bulk of battleship gray minis.

Screw it. Go with stand-ups and take the beating in the forums. The audience you're looking to sell to won't read any of it anyway.

S.

If you're going "Hasbro-type quality," which I'm not sure if that refers to the gameplay as well as the pieces, then you definitely don't need different sculpts for each ship. Stick with different colors. Like others have mentioned, what you're talking about isn't the same kind of mini that causes frenzies on KS.

I like the idea of a cloth board. That will make it unique and convey that pirate map feel. Probably keeps the cost down as well.

If you can trim the playtime to max out at 90 instead of 120, I think you'd do well. There's already a long pirate game with miniature ships called Merchants & Marauders. You don't want to set yourself up against that one.

Ignore anyone who tries to define what a "true" Ameritrash game is by specific bits or rules. Have dice or don't. Card combat or not. Doesn't matter. The nature of the gameplay is the only relevant factor.

Gregarius wrote:
If you can trim the playtime to max out at 90 instead of 120, I think you'd do well.

Definitely get it into the hands of someone who can go into cold, without you being anywhere near them while they play it, preferably someone with a knack for game development. There's a number of people around here who have a ton of experience with it, myself included (Clash of Cultures being the most well known game). These people will seem ruthless when they get back to you, but they will most likely be able to tell you how to cut your playtime. You gotta have a new set of eyes on it, and more importantly, YOU'VE GOTTA BE RECEPTIVE. There's a great big game that I've played that plenty people around here are chomping at the bit to get their hands on, but it's never going to see the light of day because it's not ready for prime time yet, and the designer simply isn't letting go.

Gregarius wrote: Ignore anyone who tries to define what a "true" Ameritrash game is by specific bits or rules. Have dice or don't. Card combat or not. Doesn't matter. The nature of the gameplay is the only relevant factor.

This x1000.

This topic really has branched into places not relating to his game.

Ignore all the back and forth about minis. You don't need them. Once nice sculpt for your ship in different colors is all you need. If you can figure a way to get clear for the ghost ship then great, if not go white, or better yet glow in the dark (great stretch goal). But use the same sculpt, you have a board game first, not a miniatures game. Different sculpts will cause you nothing but higher costs and big, big headaches (and possible a loss of a lot of money).

What you have is a board game, and this being a board game centric site, you shouldn't be surprised that there is a lot of mini-hate. But like mini gamers, board gamers look for certain things and expect certain things in games and here the devil is in the details. After all, board gamers are suckers for great looking games (just like miniature gamers are suckers for great looking miniatures).

So make sure it doesn't look like it was drawn in a cheap computer program or by your amateur friend/relative/girlfriend/spouse. Go freelance and hire someone, do it, it's worth it. Just be sure to vet them first, this is going to be the first impression everyone has, before the look at rules, before they look at anything the art and presentation is going to be the thing that keeps them looking or drives them away.

Pay attention to non-game related things like linen finishes on cards, rounded corners and sized to fit readily available card sleeves. If you're going with a cloth map make sure you pay attention to if the material you use stretches when folded at the corners causing it not to lay flat, make sure the edges are sewn or sealed so it doesn't fray.

There's been a lot of talk about miniatures being able to sell a crap game, well the same kind of holds true with board games as well. Not to say your game is crap, but a game can be fantastic, but if it doesn't look the part, it's (pardon the pun) dead on the water.


EDIT: Check out the campaigns by Red Raven Games - 8 Minute Empires and Artifacts, Inc. I think that's who you want to emulate. Then look at a campaign like Moongha Invaders or Incursion to get an idea of just how much of a headache minis can be. Also, a goal of $40k and 700 copies, that's $55+ per copy, you need to get your MSRP down. Playtime also needs to come down, reading the rules your target should be 45 mins or so. Those are the points board gamers will expect with the game weight you have.

The recent Dead of Winter has tons of cardboard standees with excellent artwork - much better than a sea of grey plastic.

Josh Look wrote:

SuperflyTNT wrote: After reading the rules, let's get a couple points out there:
1. No dice, not really Ameritrash.
2. Card combat is not really Ameritrash.
3. Victory Point Hunting is not really Ameritrash.

Also, piratical behavior, not piratic.

1. Eh. I don't care anymore. I'd prefer a choice in place of dice.
2. Tell that to DungeonQuest.
3. Tell that to Nexus Ops.

1. I get that. I still like Dungeon Twister.
2. Which has tons of dice rolling, and the card combat is much different. Plus, that's one game of a great many hundreds. Not sure it's representative but I'll concede the point.
3. See above.

Ska_baron wrote: The recent Dead of Winter has tons of cardboard standees with excellent artwork - much better than a sea of grey plastic.

Same with 1st Ed. Incursion. I happen to really like standees and I fully agree that they are a lot better than grey plastic stuff. Go with the standees.

I'm convinced: I am not going to spend more time on the models (other than polishing up the current one). Thank you all for the different opinions, always good to know this stuff.

In terms of art, I'm happy with the art. (I draw art for video games during the day.) In fact, I've been spending the last week redrawing the world map. It's got another hour left, with a few extra touches missing (like waves around islands), but art will definitely be one of my selling points.



I've been working on the game around 3 years now. I've easily played it a hundred times, 80% of the time with mostly new players. I've taken it to protospiels, Kublacon, lots of game nights, etc. It's a good game, and it'll see the light of day/Kickstarter because my friend is helping me push it out the door.

In terms of play time, especially in the last 6 months, a lot of people tell me they had no idea they had played for 2 hours. Like a frog slowly boiling, every round ramps up until the end everything is wild and the last turn is almost always the most fun. (There's a ton of rubber-banding to make sure last place is never actually that far from first. Though the better players can usually stack the odds more in their favor.) Several gamers who don't like long games have said they would play it again, so that consoles me a bit.

BUT you're right, it should be shorter. But the game encourages analysis paralysis. Every round you have a limited number of random cards, and you don't draw until the round ends (unless attacked). Usually at least half the board is reasonably in range. So you can go for two actions nearby, one farther away, or try for something really challenging anywhere. And every time a player does something, areas of the board are now weaker or stronger, or now off-limits, etc. Almost every player's every action can change your choices. So although it's quite fun for most casual players, they also spend a lot of time deliberating. It's the mechanic of the game, though. I love how it works. But it does make the rounds go slowly.

It maxes out above 120, as well. The average game is 105 min, but it's gone to 2.5 hours before on a couple occasions.. That's why I'm hoping this starting condition I'm testing this week will shorten the game without killing the narrative curve the game currently creates. (I love the stories I get out of this game.)

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Finally, one of the things I'm most thankful for with this conversation, is there are a lot of games you're mentioning for me to check out. The scene is overwhelming these days, and it's hard to know the other games you think about in these conversations. I prefer not to know until I'm done designing, so I don't emulate other games too much, but I'll definitely be checking out these games. (I still haven't played Merchants and Marauders..) Hopefully after I release at least a few people will put me on par with any games mentioned.

I really like the art, and honestly, I'd print "90 minutes" on the box knowing it may very well go much longer. If you played it once at 90 minutes, you aren't lying. I always look at those numbers as "possible, but improbable".

Make some standees, because with your artistic skills it will really "make" the game. Cubes are fine, but man, if you had really cool looking standees, that would really add some polish to the game.

That map looks great, if that style is carried throughout, then it speaks to me. I'd be interested.
But, and I'll be blunt, 90-120 mins, that does not speak to me.

Out of curiosity...When you've done your playtesting were you always present?

Randy, first of all, I didn't realize that you worked on Spider and Waking Mars- GREAT games, definitely among the best on IOS.

Now it's time for some unsolicited tough love here.

I read through the rules and what I'm seeing is an OK draft, but I am definitely not seeing a game I would want to be playing for 90-120 minutes. I'm seeing a game I want to play with my kids for 30-45 minutes. It seems like there are a couple of slowdown points (saying this without having played it), such as the whole "do as many actions as you want" and this combat subsystem that effectively stops the game for everyone not involved.

But the main problem I'm having is that I can't see any compelling reason for me to play this game when a) it features subject matter that is well covered by other games with similar weight/complexity levels (Black Fleet, Pirate's Cove, Jamaica, the execrable Pirateer, etc.) b) there aren't any particular mechanics or concepts that are making me go "huhn!" and c) the 4-6 player limit is crippling- if I had this game, I'd be playing it with three. And in the marketplace, people are wanting 2-4 more than than 4-6 these days.

What is Scoundrels offering me that I can not get anywhere else? What is your pitch to me as not only a consumer, but a "power user" sort of consumer? How would you sell this game to families versus how would you sell it to hardcore gamers? What is going to make this game worth my money? I'm not seeing the answers yet- not saying they aren't there or won't come out later on, but for right now this is a game I would pass on, all things considered.

One thing you've got going is the artwork, which I actually like. But there again, the "cute pirates" thing is VERY well covered. So how can you make "cute pirates" _different_? Look at that World of Yoho thing- they made it different with anthropomorphic animals. A small change, but it matters.

As for the Ameritrash issue, who gives a freestyling shit about what is or isnt' "Ameritrash", to 99.99999999% of the world, including about 90% of board gamers, that term is unknown or misunderstood to the point of meaninglessness. "Is this game fun?" is a much more relevant, defining question to ask.

Standups are absolutely fine. I was playing Eldritch Horror last night thinking "gosh, I like these standups a hell of a lot more than do gray, unpainted miniatures. I agree 100% with what Legomancer said. When you sell unpainted miniatures, you are effectively selling a different kind of product that will also appeal to people that want to paint miniatures and may even do so without regard for the game.

Get creative! Make tokens out of little masts with a piece of cloth screen-printed with a pirate emblem or something. But don't do miniatures, you'll just waste your time and money. Especially for a game like this. You should be thinking more Survive! and less Dread Fleet.

I'm getting sold on the standups argument, especially thinking about the artwork carried over to different ship designs and styles...I like it.

Crap...It's 4-6 players? That basically rules it out for me then.

I hadn't considered standups, but it could be how we drop the initial kickstarter amount. I'm really glad y'all like the art, though. :]

The rules need help in terms of writing. That's my current challenge. I have done blind playtests twice (gave them the game, the rules, and a large pizza). Those tests have been informative. Teaching player fighting is my biggest hurdle yet solved. I may make a youtube video to explain it.

What makes Scoundrels stand out is that, to me, it's an exciting story in which the mechanics themselves are pirate actions. Your action choices are board, shoot, pillage, sail and bury treasure. It feels like piracy. And it's got luck, it's kinda poker-ish with not knowing how good or bad of cards your opponent may have, but knowing that if you attack them, they'll be that much weaker from other players. I believe the mechanics are about the excitement of being a pirate. You get treasure, your friend wants it. She comes and steals it from your ship. Now it's your turn and you shoot her with cannons and then take it back and bury it.

When I first designed it 3 years ago, I had not seen many casual pirate games, but now there are a lot. I am kinda terrified. So my only response is that players respond well and most say they'd play again and many say they really liked it. This moment is what I think mine offers: https://vine.co/v/Mg12XQDMlQ3

Yeah, it's 4-6 players. Could be 3 players, but not nearly as exciting. This game was largely inspired by the social fun of Cash n Guns. All of the tuning has been about pushing players against each other. Any time I tweak a mechanic, it's to force players to fight, to feel unsafe. That player interaction is the core of the game, and the more players, the more chaotic and enjoyable.

The upside of the cloth map is that you can resize it to different player amounts. So when I'm only playing with 4 people, I fold it over so the board is about half the full size.

It works with 3 players, but not that well... Should I say it's 2-6? There's absolutely no reason you can't play with even 2 players, it's just not that interesting with so few people. This is one of those sales questions. As a designer I would never recommend 2 or 3 players, but it's totally possible within the rules. So should it say 2-6?


Ugh. Yeah, maybe it won't happen. I guess I'll just have to hope that 4-6 players and 90-120 (maybe 60-90) min playtime won't end it. The only reason I rest easier is knowing that it's what I wanted to make. Maybe it's not going to sell, but it's definitely the game I wanted.

(And glad you liked Spider and Waking Mars. I now must bail on the forum for the day because I need to do non-Scoundrels work!)

If it plays 2-6 most publishers would put that, even if the designer doesn't recommend it. I'm not necessarily saying do that, I'm just saying that's common practice. Maybe there's a way you could liven up a 2 or 3 player game like players controlling 2 ships or some AI ships.