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Shiv - A microgame about shanking inmates

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23 Apr 2015 08:50 #201346 by Legomancer
Hey Charles, I'm sorry I haven't gotten to this. I haven't been in a 3p situation lately. I promise I will print it out and get it played soon.

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23 Apr 2015 09:37 #201349 by SuperflyPete
Dave: Jim's back from Gathering...go bug he and his lovely wife.

Chuck: I'll have a 3P situtation on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday this week, and almost every week. Had I gotten those files and had some time to look at it, I could've gotten an article punched out on the Circus, so like 3 more people would've voted for it, maybe. :)

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23 Apr 2015 10:42 #201352 by charlest
Ha, but what if you hate it Pete? Not sure I want to be slammed by the Circus conglomerate. No need to waste time on an article though, if it doesn't get picked up in the competition I may request feedback to help build a case to present to a publisher down the line.

No problem Dave. I sent it to a bunch of people and no one has gotten back, which is perfectly fine as I don't have any expectations. I'd recommend holding off as I've made some balancing changes and minor tweaks. One kind of significant change is now you can Shiv as much as you want. More thematic that way and just required a few balance tweaks to implement. Also have gang symbols on the card backs for each gang for easier identification.

We played last night and it went really well. I suck at my own game and lost one of my low on the totem pole dudes in the first round to an unexpected high risk attack, and then got beaten down in the second due to a clever move by another player. Had a good time and it only took 20 minutes, even with a new player.

I'm pretty happy right now with the game. It will need a lot more playtesting before it could be published due to every single card having a unique power and factions needing to be balanced, but none of the factions have proved dominant or excessive. Minor tweaking at this point.

I will send you the files with the most current version tonight Pete. Dave if you're still interested let me know and I can send them to you as well (along with anyone else who wants to try it). Rules are 4 pages I think, and there's 24 black and white cards so ink isn't too terrible.

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23 Apr 2015 12:05 #201357 by SuperflyPete
Hell yes, I'm psyched up. This should be fun. I have a hard time with the Circus hating this, since it has key elements that they like:
Prison Rape Avoidance (of a sort)
Backstabbing
Weapons made from sharpened toothbrushes
Short
Concise rules

So, I think it would be a hit here.

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18 May 2015 09:26 #202602 by charlest
So Shiv did not win unfortunately, but the winner ("Smoking Gun") did look very cool and I imagine is well deserved.

There was four half hour sessions where volunteer judges and playtesters were taught and then played the game. They then filled out feedback and rated the game. I'm not sure how user feedback was weighted against the judge feedback.

Zev was a judge and was at my table first. We talked about Daredevil, Z-Man, Pete Ruth, and a couple other things before it started which was fun.

I had two games going simultaneously so I couldn't be absolutely attentive to both. Zev's group seemed to really get it and handled pretty much everything on their own. There was a couple moments of cheering/hollering as Zev trapped another guy (twice I think), so that was a cool way to kick it off. I was busy helping a very kind older woman kick two other people's rears in the second game.

The second group I had was OK, it was a group of three women and they seemed to get into it a bit laughing as they were killing each other off.

The third group was getting it but had a young 12-14 year old kid that was really struggling. This kind of weighed the experience down as he didn't seem to grok the rules at all.

The final group was simply depressing. It was a roughly 40 year old couple and their 10 year old son, Jay Little who was a judge, and another guy who was OK but a little too focused on rambling off-topic.

The dad immediately was clearly morally opposed to the idea and I could tell by his body language he didn't even want to play. I wasn't sure how to handle that and to his credit he didn't stop playing or verbally object. His wife was quiet but I imagine uncomfortable. The morally opposed guy didn't get the game at all and I think his stance and disinterest really made it nearly impossible to teach him.

Jay Little is an cool guy and very intelligent (he designed X-Wing among others) but he can be crotchety so I couldn't read him at all. Due to the dad's disinterest and the way the weather was blowing I think it also didn't help and the whole experience wasn't great at all. This was also the game that BGG's Chad (the guy who sponsored the competition) quietly observed me from the back. Stellar, right?

After the game the dad said "I don't know...I think you need to try a few different themes".

I completely understand this only appealing to a niche and I realize it can make some people uncomfortable. However, the fact that an offensive theme can result in me be rated poorly across the board (on Originality, Replayability, Player Interaction) is a bit off.

The publisher gave away a copy of A Fistful Of Dinero as one of the playtester prizes and when the dad found out I designed that he came back over to me and said "...You designed A Fistful Of Dinero?" in complete shock. I think he thought Shiv was so horrible he was surprised I could design something that he deemed as decent.

Overall I came away certainly frustrated. I had cleared my theme with Chad before the competition started, but I didn't realize there would be so many middle schoolers at the event. Randomly being assigned playtesters was rough, but at least I had a couple of groups that got into it.

My frustration was curbed when the next day I was talking to a buddy near Action Phase Games' booth - company run by Travis Chance who designed Infamy and Heroes wanted, and Travis' main developer said hi. I didn't realize he was a playtester at the competition but he was in Zev's group in the beginning. He said he loved Shiv and thought it was awesome and wanted to publish it. Said they could fit it into one of their sheets for the next game they're printing and make it for cheap. However, they couldn't sign the game because of the theme. He said he really liked the theme and thought the mechanics did an excellent job of emulating it, but they design family games and couldn't have a game named Shiv sitting next to Heroes Wanted at conventions. He did say he'd put in a good word as a reference if I was talking to any publishers in the future.

So that did lift my spirits and I'm glad I committed to the competition. Not sure what to do now though. Someone suggested I could talk to Smirk and Dagger. Travis Chance mentioned that he thought microgames were on their way out and I should consider developing it into a slightly bigger card game (100-150 cards) as that sector is booming right now. I already had several ideas in mind on how to do that, and it'd be a better game, but I'm not going to sink more time into something that won't get published when I have a list of other things I could work on. Frustrating but I guess that's the business.

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18 May 2015 15:05 #202624 by Michael Barnes
"Smoking Gun" sounds much more family-friendly.
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18 May 2015 15:06 #202625 by charlest

Michael Barnes wrote: "Smoking Gun" sounds much more family-friendly.


Well, it was more Maltese Falcon as opposed to Oz.

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18 May 2015 15:17 #202629 by Michael Barnes
Objectionable subject matter in games is such an odd paradigm...on the one hand, genocide and wholesale slaughter is usually just fine. But something as specific as stabbing somebody? Not so much. And sex is right out of the question.

Then you get folks on one side that are totally cool with any kind of subject matter. Then the people for whom there can't be subject matter that is offensive enough for them. Down the other way, you have the homeschooling Evangelicals that view board gaming as some kind of "wholesome" activity that won't tolerate so much as an image of a nude Grecian statue.

But if you pay attention, there are definitely publishers that handle this kind of thing almost exclusively- they tend to be smaller, niche outfits. I get what Travis is saying, and I think that's good business. When you publish a game, you have to see how it fits into your catalog and what the effect of leading people to it via the brand is as well as what kind of an audience it will bring to the brand. Because you know how gamers are...if Z-Man were to handle it, there would inevitably be people upset at the company because won't somebody think of the children and all that.

But if it were about shiving a goblin or a zombie...that should pass muster with any publisher or player.
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18 May 2015 15:24 #202630 by charlest

Michael Barnes wrote: But if it were about shiving a goblin or a zombie...that should pass muster with any publisher or player.


You're suggesting Goblin/Orc gangs in a steampunk prison? Genius.
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18 May 2015 15:54 #202632 by stoic
I'd say change the theme to hitting opponents' piñatas for candy at a party© and you're golden. Send me a copy when it gets published. ;-)
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18 May 2015 17:03 #202635 by Michael Barnes
My children are allergic to all food you inhuman monster.

Plus striking the piñata and getting something from it implies that the way to get what they want is through violence.

Since when did These Games of Ours turn into such a hotbed of sin and social inequality.
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18 May 2015 17:50 #202640 by stoic

Michael Barnes wrote: My children are allergic to all food you inhuman monster.

Plus striking the piñata and getting something from it implies that the way to get what they want is through violence.

Since when did These Games of Ours turn into such a hotbed of sin and social inequality.


It's ok because these piñatas represent the Capitalist, Nationalist evils of First World Western Civilization, its beneficiaries (both knowing and unknowing), and its complicit actors and defenders as expressed through the hopeful eyes of the downtrodden indigenous proletariat who're simply righting past wrongs and seeking social justice by pounding on a piñata for which the extruding candy (gluten, sugar, and non-organic additive free) symbolizes each measure of weight that might readjust the scales of justice in a future social revolution. Though you object to violence, violence is always correct when directed against certain deserving groups because then it isn't violence, but, rather, punishment deserved by the wicked and needed for their rehabilitation, like medicine.

Each of these games will be hand-made and certified as a "fair-trade" products made in mud huts from only recycled organic and other natural non-animal and non-chemical substances, sourced from only renewable resources that do not have any environmental burdens or concerns for which pre-paid carbon credits purchased from the UN will be made as a precaution to offset their use. Playing of said game will also require an equal-time social commitment by any players to commit to do community and charitable works for every moment spent in leisure playing the game or thinking about playing the game.
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18 May 2015 18:59 #202641 by Michael Barnes
It still smacks of sinister intent.

I only buy artisanal product made by craftsmen. Artisanal cotton candy, artisanal clipboards, artisanal gravy boats, artisanal spark plug wrenches and so forth. Can you verify that this game is hand-crafted by a man with a beard and horn-rimmed glasses, preferably wearing an ironic plaid lumberjack shirt?

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18 May 2015 20:02 #202644 by wadenels
I could hook you up with an artist friend of mine. He's underground prolific, and influential in particular circles. You probably haven't heard of him. I doubt it matters anyway. If you're really worried about a shiv then you aren't even aware of the antiestablishment necessity of the instrument. It's not even a weapon, really.

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18 May 2015 21:28 #202649 by SebastianBludd

charlest wrote: Said they could fit it into one of their sheets for the next game they're printing and make it for cheap. However, they couldn't sign the game because of the theme. He said he really liked the theme and thought the mechanics did an excellent job of emulating it, but they design family games and couldn't have a game named Shiv sitting next to Heroes Wanted at conventions.


Here's what you do: change the theme from prison to the Roman Senate where your "gang members" are members of the Praetorian Guard who are loyal to you, the powerful Roman Senator vying for control against two of his peers. Then slap a sufficiently stodgy-looking white-haired Senator (with requisite haughty glare) on the box and it will sell itself. If you go the extra mile and call it something pretentious like Last of the Triumvirate or Death Throes of the Republic then I think you could put in an advance order for that gold-plated rocket car you've always had your eye on. You're welcome.

Seriously though, the publisher interest is awesome and best of luck getting it into print.
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