Front Page

Content

Authors

Game Index

Forums

Site Tools

Submissions

About

KK
Kevin Klemme
March 09, 2020
35174 2
Hot
KK
Kevin Klemme
January 27, 2020
20840 0
Hot
KK
Kevin Klemme
August 12, 2019
7430 0
Hot
O
oliverkinne
December 19, 2023
3981 0
Hot
O
oliverkinne
December 14, 2023
3508 0
Hot

Mycelia Board Game Review

Board Game Reviews
O
oliverkinne
December 12, 2023
2080 0
O
oliverkinne
December 07, 2023
2587 0

River Wild Board Game Review

Board Game Reviews
O
oliverkinne
December 05, 2023
2258 0
O
oliverkinne
November 30, 2023
2500 0
J
Jackwraith
November 29, 2023
3022 0
Hot
O
oliverkinne
November 28, 2023
1973 0
S
Spitfireixa
October 24, 2023
3698 0
Hot
O
oliverkinne
October 17, 2023
2626 0
O
oliverkinne
October 10, 2023
2463 0
O
oliverkinne
October 09, 2023
2291 0
O
oliverkinne
October 06, 2023
2510 0

Outback Crossing Review

Board Game Reviews
×
Bugs: Recent Topics Paging, Uploading Images & Preview (11 Dec 2020)

Recent Topics paging, uploading images and preview bugs require a patch which has not yet been released.

× Talk about the latest and greatest AT, and the Classics.

GenCon vs. Indiana

More
28 Mar 2015 12:29 - 28 Mar 2015 12:47 #200076 by Attrition
Replied by Attrition on topic GenCon vs. Indiana

Msample wrote: money talks and politics walks


You may be right that ultimately this perspective prevails, but I wouldn't be so certain. Some things are worth taking a financial hit and laws that protect discrimination go beyond just "politics." If Jim Crow states still existed, I wouldn't be attending any cons there either.

The last time I drove through Indiana almost every billboard was a Monsanto ad or anti-choice propaganda. With apologies to those in Indianapolis who do not support the prejudicial laws of their flyover red state, I'd prefer to spend my dollars elsewhere, even if it's more expensive.
Last edit: 28 Mar 2015 12:47 by Attrition.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jay718

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Mar 2015 23:07 #200088 by Sevej
Replied by Sevej on topic GenCon vs. Indiana
Okay, from a non-american here... I heard there are some other states with similar laws? Was there commotions too during their enactment? And is discrimination rampant on these states?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
29 Mar 2015 00:25 #200091 by Disgustipater
Replied by Disgustipater on topic GenCon vs. Indiana
I don't know about other states, but Oregon has anti-discrimination laws that are basically the opposite of this. About two years ago, a bakery here in Portland refused to sell a gay couple a wedding cake based on religious grounds. A judge ruled the bakery discriminated, and they have to pay the couple $150,000. Their bakery has since closed.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
29 Mar 2015 01:20 - 29 Mar 2015 01:21 #200092 by daveroswell
Replied by daveroswell on topic GenCon vs. Indiana

Sevej wrote: Okay, from a non-american here... I heard there are some other states with similar laws? Was there commotions too during their enactment? And is discrimination rampant on these states?


I believe the issue is the wording in the Indiana laws language is more vague than the other 19 states, potentially allowing discrimination. My thing is: isn't it illegal to pass a law that violates/contradicts existing laws (especially national law)? Anti-discrimination laws are on the books, are they not?
Last edit: 29 Mar 2015 01:21 by daveroswell.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
29 Mar 2015 09:42 #200103 by engelstein
Replied by engelstein on topic GenCon vs. Indiana
And Pence is already trying to walk this back. From the NY Times :

Gov. Mike Pence of Indiana said he would support legislation to “clarify the intent” of a new state law that has attracted widespread criticism over concerns that it could allow discrimination against gay people. In an interview on Saturday with The Indianapolis Star, the Republican governor said he had been in discussions with legislative leaders over the weekend. He expected that a clarification bill would be introduced this week to the religious objections law he signed on Thursday.

He has disputed claims that the law allows state-sanctioned anti-gay discrimination, as some Indiana businesses, convention organizers and others have argued, and said that he did not anticipate “the hostility that’s been directed at our state.”


Really? In spite of all the media attention before he signed the stupid thing?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
29 Mar 2015 09:52 #200104 by hotseatgames
Replied by hotseatgames on topic GenCon vs. Indiana
Power to the people!

Pre-Internet this kind of thing would have been much more likely to fly under the radar.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
29 Mar 2015 13:36 #200108 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic GenCon vs. Indiana

engelstein wrote: He has disputed claims that the law allows state-sanctioned anti-gay discrimination, as some Indiana businesses, convention organizers and others have argued, and said that he did not anticipate “the hostility that’s been directed at our state.”[/i]

Really? In spite of all the media attention before he signed the stupid thing?


Heh. The attention prior to the signing was fairly mild as these things go, likely because people figured he'd do the smart thing and veto it, as Brewer did in Arizona. When you have the CEO of Salesforce saying that this is really not a good idea if they want to keep corporations operating in your state and the mayor of the largest city in your state objecting (in the same way that they did in AZ), most people figure that's enough to encourage the chief executive to do the right thing. Apparently not. But note the continuation of the victim complex: "the hostility that's been directed at our state." This is the same attitude that generated the legislation in the first place. The veneer is not that they want to discriminate. It's that people are already discriminating against them because they're not allowed to exercise their religion, blah, blah, blah. Now it's not that people have said they don't want to be active in a state that discriminates. It's that they're being hostile towards Indiana (and, presumably, Christianity.) Such bullshit.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Attrition

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
29 Mar 2015 13:50 #200109 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic GenCon vs. Indiana

daveroswell wrote: I believe the issue is the wording in the Indiana laws language is more vague than the other 19 states, potentially allowing discrimination. My thing is: isn't it illegal to pass a law that violates/contradicts existing laws (especially national law)? Anti-discrimination laws are on the books, are they not?


The laws concerning LGBT people are in place but there's a fair amount of gray area in them, depending on how the topic is approached. For example, the Hobby Lobby case created a lot of leeway for specious "religious belief" in employment stuations that allows people to say that they're only following what their religion dictates. The aftereffect of the original Religious Freedom Act that Clinton signed in the early 90s is similar. The original foundation for that legislation was allowing certain Native American tribes to continue to use peyote as a sacrament, since it's a controlled substance under federal law. But that law is now used as a basis to make all kinds of horseshit excuses and complaints about "things we don't like."

But, yes, the assumption is that most of these things would get slapped down on 14th amendment grounds. But until someone brings that case and it winds its way all the way to SCOTUS, the state laws would stand, barring public revolt as is now happening in Indiana.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
30 Mar 2015 10:24 #200125 by 433
Replied by 433 on topic GenCon vs. Indiana

Colorcrayons wrote: There were murmurs back in 2007 or 2008 about Gencon moving to Minneapolis.


The problem right now is that there are only 3000 hotel rooms in DT Minneapolis, as opposed to 6000 in DT Indy. Indianapolis has turned itself into the main non-Vegas convention city in the country.

Now, with Minnesota hosting the Super Bowl in 2018, there's push to build a major 1,000 room convention hotel to both handle SB levels and grabbing some of that sweet, sweet convention money. The MCC is about 110,000 square feet smaller than the ICC, so there would have to be a lot of space used in nearby hotels as well.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
30 Mar 2015 10:25 - 30 Mar 2015 10:52 #200126 by SuperflyPete
Replied by SuperflyPete on topic GenCon vs. Indiana

daveroswell wrote:
I believe the issue is the wording in the Indiana laws language is more vague than the other 19 states, potentially allowing discrimination. My thing is: isn't it illegal to pass a law that violates/contradicts existing laws (especially national law)? Anti-discrimination laws are on the books, are they not?


There's plenty of anti-discrimination laws out there, the least of which are the Civil Rights Acts, but some states (and the Feds) have RFRA laws on the books. The real difference here (in text) is that Indiana allows private persons and businesses to use their new as an affirmative defense against a civil suit based on discrimination. So, they literally gave people a blanket law that allows them to say, "We don't serve your kind here". Now, many other states have ~similar~ laws but thus far this is the one that specifically provides affirmative defense to private parties.

Now, to complicate things, many circuit courts (about half) have held that similar laws WHILE NOT SPECIFICALLY STATED, do apply to private persons, where the other half held that the laws only apply to government (any - state, local, federal etc) entities.

It's a fucking mess. I deliberated very hard over this (as you know, Dave) and as much as I hate the government telling people how to live in any way, shape, or form, I think that a private business has the duty to serve everyone. Taking photos at a gay wedding might require you to wear a feed bag to catch the vomit when you puke from photographing the male-on-male "first kiss" but the fact is that when you signed up for a business license, you signed up to serve the public. ANY PUBLIC. I talked with my wife last night about this, as she's a great sounding board, and we both agree that you have that duty.

Here's some pretty good analysis:
joshblackman.com/blog/2015/03/26/compari...nd-the-indiana-rfra/
Last edit: 30 Mar 2015 10:52 by SuperflyPete.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
30 Mar 2015 10:38 #200128 by SuperflyPete
Replied by SuperflyPete on topic GenCon vs. Indiana
It has happened before, my friend. All you need to do in order to invoke that clause would be to show harm. A solid lawyer could easily show from the backlash online, letters being sent, etc that harm has been done. Now, it's a little too late to start changing the venue, but for next year, they can look at the trend in attendance (against GDP for instance, to show that it's not an economic reason) and if it drops off this year, they can blame that on the boycott. Those online petition sites (like Change.org) would go a long way toward supporting the argument.

I always put this clause (well, a different version with many provisions...) into my contracts:

FORCE MAJEURE:
If either party is prevented from or delayed in the performance of any obligation, other than the obligations to make payment, by reason of any cause beyond its control, including but not restricted to abnormal weather conditions, an act of God, breakdown or destruction of plant or equipment, shortage of or inability to secure normal transportation, labor difficulties, strike or shortage of labor or government acts or regulations, and from which that party cannot reasonably relieve itself, including any closures or reductions in XXXX or Seller's operations for economic reasons, then that party will be excused from performance during the continuance of the contingency and will not be liable to the other for damages. It is a condition of obtaining relief under Article 16.1 that the party claiming relief will:
a) give the other party immediate notice of its inability to perform and of the cause or
b) provide the other party as soon as reasonably possible with written particulars of inability; and;
c) use all reasonable efforts to remove the cause of prevention or delay as soon as possible
<SNIP>


This kind of thing is 100% fair and protects both parties equally from shit that they cannot foresee or control. If this clause (or, really, a similar one) existed in their contract, and SHOULD, then they should be able to make notification that they have been unduly restricted or damaged by government regulation (which is a true case, if the boycott of Gencon holds), then the contract would be suspended or terminated, depending on the contract stips.

Just my 2c.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
30 Mar 2015 10:51 #200130 by SuperflyPete
Replied by SuperflyPete on topic GenCon vs. Indiana

433 wrote:

Colorcrayons wrote: There were murmurs back in 2007 or 2008 about Gencon moving to Minneapolis.


The problem right now is that there are only 3000 hotel rooms in DT Minneapolis, as opposed to 6000 in DT Indy. Indianapolis has turned itself into the main non-Vegas convention city in the country.

Now, with Minnesota hosting the Super Bowl in 2018, there's push to build a major 1,000 room convention hotel to both handle SB levels and grabbing some of that sweet, sweet convention money. The MCC is about 110,000 square feet smaller than the ICC, so there would have to be a lot of space used in nearby hotels as well.


www.10best.com/awards/travel/best-convention-city/

I think Colorado would be great because it's central and has cheap airfare from both sides of the country, but if GenCon moves anywhere that isn' t a 2-4 hour drive, they can forget me attending. I like to go to it, but not so much that I'd put myself out. I have Origins, LexiCon, and others to go to if I want to, and if I'm going to fly, I'm going to go to WBC or ConnCon or Trashfest British Columbia, not GenCon.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Moderators: Gary Sax
Time to create page: 0.537 seconds