dynamic initiative systems

I don't mind games where play just proceeds clockwise around the table. But sometimes a game with a lot of interaction may benefit from a less predictable structure for determining who goes next. What games do you enjoy that happen to have a more dynamic initiative system than just clockwise? Does the initiative rule help make the game good?

One example is Spartacus. Players bid to host the Arena each turn, and the player with that Host token is also the first player during the take-that card phase the next turn. I like that the initiative tends to go to the more successful players in the game, but leaves the high bidder in a less advantageous position of going first with the take-that cards.

I do like the idea of dynamic initiative systems, particularly the Spartacus example. Sons of Anarchy does it too with the Patchholder, which is a neat touch. Homeland even messes with the order via the card deck so you're not quite sure when you will be first player. Apparently GF9 and you are on the same page.

What I don't like is when it's taken too far. Eclipse has a variant where turn order is determined by who passes earlier in the round. While strategically it's interesting, it sucks because it's much more information you have to track and it slows the game down for little benefit.

Greed, the Donald X. Vaccarino drafting game, has players perform actions from lowest to highest number appearing on the bottom corner of the card they just played. That's pretty cool, but again it can slow the game down "Who's next highest number?"

CYCLADES has a cool system. It's layered, too, as there is initiative for bidding, and the outcome of bidding determines the initiative for playing. Sometimes you need to go first (first player has access to monsters before others), but the auction mechanism used to determine which god's favor you have is a tricky one because you can't bid on the same god twice in a row. So sometimes you lowball god #2 or #3, assuming someone will bump you and you can make your real bid on god #1 with more information--and potentially booting a rival from bidding there again this round. This bid jockeying is often more fun than rolling dice and playing with Gorgons and shit.

Cthulhu Wars grants first player to the one with the most power (gained from cultists and spawn points on the board). It then takes it a bit further and lets the first player determine if the turns will go clockwise or counter-clockwise.

While this can have strategic results, I'm not sure they are so drastic as to be worth making an unfortunate person sit through up to 5 turns before he gets to go again.

charlest wrote:
What I don't like is when it's taken too far. Eclipse has a variant where turn order is determined by who passes earlier in the round. While strategically it's interesting, it sucks because it's much more information you have to track and it slows the game down for little benefit.

"

Huh ? Whoever passes first gets the big wooden pawn in front of them. What's so hard about that ??

no one here likes it but CAYLUS does this brilliantly

Managing turn order is the heart of Powergrid, IMO.

Edit: I'd say the same thing for Age of Steam, Steam, and Railways of the World as well.

Msample wrote:

charlest wrote:
What I don't like is when it's taken too far. Eclipse has a variant where turn order is determined by who passes earlier in the round. While strategically it's interesting, it sucks because it's much more information you have to track and it slows the game down for little benefit.

"

Huh ? Whoever passes first gets the big wooden pawn in front of them. What's so hard about that ??

I'm talking about a variant that's in an expansion and was discussed on BGG long before it was officially available.

The first player that passes is first, the second player that passes is second, etc. It requires more components and odd structure.

What about a strictly random initiative system? For example, in Divine Right, everybody pulls an initiative chit from a cup, and the lowest chit goes first while the highest goes last. I think that is obviously not as good as an initiative rule that involves spending resources or making a tactical sacrifice to go first. But the chit pull does result in a more dynamic turn order than clockwise starting with the first player. Unfortunately, this can sometimes cause one player to go first on one turn and last on the next, effectively giving everybody else two turns in a row with respect to that one player.

When I play multiplayer free-for-all games of Mordheim, Necromunda, or the like, I like to have the players roll a d6 for initiative every turn.

Great, easy way to simulate chaos in the streets.

(not all players agree with me on this though...some hate it)

My most recent encounter with random initiative was with Savage Worlds. In it, each player pulls a random playing card from a standard deck the highest draw going first. The system has some cool touches that allow PCs to get better at influencing their card draw and even rewards characters that pull a Joker. My group has enjoyed it a lot and it sure has the benefit of speeding play along with no need to roll dice or takes notes on who has acted.

The Marvel Heroic Roleplaying system has a fun narrative way of handling initiative by allowing the GM and players to simply declare who starts the action based on how events have played out in the game. After that the active player simply passed to who they think should go next and when the round is over the last PC/NPC to act gets to choose who goes first next round. Simple and thematic for comics action.

I just finished reading through the X-Wing Miniatures rules and trying out the starter game and I love how initiative there is handled. I'm sure this has a long history in wargames but basing initiative on pilot skill is a great touch. Better pilots act last but get to fire first, making those more expensive pilots tempting to add to those budgeted rosters.

The way Age of Renaissance handles turn order is amazingly tense, probably one of the best implementations I've ever seen if simply because of the way it ties with the rest of the game.

At the beginning of each turn players pay in secret, any amount of money to buy tokens, which must be used that turn to expand, attack and buy cards. You cannot hoard them and players take turns starting with the player who bought the least. This is extremely important because being first also means to attack first, causing a paradox:

- The more tokens you have, the more territories you can attack, but you won't actually gain that many territories if you go last.
- Having few tokens means you can strike first, reducing the need for extra defenses, but it also means you won't be able to capture much.

Even more interesting, the available technologies play with the turn order a bit. One of the most important militaries technologies let's you win a battle if you roll over your turn order (That is, 2+ if you are second, 3+ if you are third, etc.) and another forces every other player to pay a "tithe" of 2 tokens to each player with that technology, giving him a advantage in the number of tokens without going latter on the turn order. It's really interesting and really ties the game together.

The end result is that you have a game in which you can leverage your economic advantage to win, but there's no economic snowball whatsoever. You cannot simply buy more troops that anyone else and keep winning battles just because you have bigger numbers, the game forces you to fight more fairly while still giving an edge to players that get a good economy running.

Damn, I wish I could play Age of Renaissance again.

AoR is a good one.

Of the "random order per turn", I like Air Baron, in how it ties with going in and out of Fare Wars (and risking missing payments).

Not really an exact fit, but I like how Dungeon Petz implemented action drafting. In brief, at the beginning of each turn, each player secretly creates multiple groups of imps and/or gold; the largest groups get first pick of the actions. So you can form a large group to ensure going first... then pick up the scraps left behind with your other puny groups.

I like systems where the actions have an order to them and you choose initiative from there. Like in Runewars where you choose simultaneously what to do and the order is determined from that... ties are settled by influence. Which seems thematic to me and works well too. I dig Galaxy Truckers systems too. You build simultaneously but whoever finishes first gets to choose with a first come first serve system. It's a little chaotic but also feels strangely thematic and certainly adds to the strategy.