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Player Elimination

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29 Jun 2015 18:40 #205146 by quozl
Replied by quozl on topic Player Elimination
What's the proper game that came later?

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29 Jun 2015 18:50 #205147 by wadenels
Replied by wadenels on topic Player Elimination
I've always like player elimination as long as there's some control over it. Diplomacy always gets called out as a bad example of player elimination, but I completely disagree with that. Diplomacy is a negotiation game that happens to have a map; being eliminated means you didn't make yourself valuable enough to the right people at the right times. Risk is a map game that happens to have negotiation, and if you get eliminated in Risk you played the map more poorly than your opponents. There's no place for re-entering in either game. Re-entering makes no thematic sense.

Games where you are allowed to re-enter should have a reason for it. Talisman lets you come back as another character, which is totally fine and fun because at its core Talisman is really just a fun romp around a fantasy land. It's a bummer to lose a character you've built up, but you're still likely to have fun starting out again unless it's very late in the game.

Being effectively eliminated, but not properly eliminated, sucks. But it's better than catch-up mechanisms, which are rarely thematic or all that interesting. Pete doesn't like when a player that is effectively eliminated plays kingmaker/troublemaker, but I suggest that a player in that position hasn't really been eliminated because they still have something to offer in a well-designed game.
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01 Jul 2015 16:29 #205235 by Kailes
Replied by Kailes on topic Player Elimination
I'm generally not a fan of player elimination, because much of my enjoyment of board games comes from the shared experience, which is obviously lessened if you are eliminated early, but also whenever another player is eliminated. Games might get away with it, if player elimination only occurs right at the end. If done right, the game may even benefit from it. E.g. a game that always builds up to climactic conflict, deciding the victor and leaving one or more players in the dust, but resolution of the whole game is right around the corner. However, few games with player elimination achieve that.

Runaway leaders are a very similar problem. Though all players are in the game at all times at least nominally, in some games a player may be destined for last place early on with nothing to do about it. Many engine building games and games with an exponential growth economy have that problem by their very nature. And most catchup mechanics seem, as others already mentioned, completely arbitrary or worse yet, are so powerful that the early game and midgame don't really matter.
Games with growing economies may introduce some kind of diminishing returns to investment or maintenance fees. But that will only make the leader run away more slowly. What seems to work best is providing players with high risk/high payout and low risk/low payout options and incentivizing the leading players to take the latter. High risk may be due to luck or/and the maneuver being more difficult to execute in some way. The high risk play may backfire, but it gives players a fighting chance and feels pretty natural.

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01 Jul 2015 16:52 #205236 by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic Player Elimination

quozl wrote: What's the proper game that came later?


Something like Game of Thrones is pretty close to Diplomacy, but is much shorter and doesn't have stalemate lines. But even it has the Lannister elimination problem.
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01 Jul 2015 17:49 #205238 by quozl
Replied by quozl on topic Player Elimination
Yeah, Game of Thrones is pretty good. Not sure if it's as good as Diplomacy though as the secret orders revealed simultaneously is a much bigger emotional rush.

And even though player elimination sucks, it does do one good thing in games that have it - it provides tension as players play to get over their fear of getting eliminated.

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02 Jul 2015 11:16 #205263 by DukeofChutney
Replied by DukeofChutney on topic Player Elimination
I don't necessarily have a problem with player elimination though in reality i play very few multiplayer games with it. I find that its rare in AGOT or Dune. Titan is probably the only game i really like that's long and has it as a dominant feature. With Titan i give it a pass because usually several players are eliminated in quick succession so they can start up another game. I have just ordered a copy of GWs Warrior Knights, is there much player elimination in that?

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02 Jul 2015 11:59 #205268 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Player Elimination
I don't think I've ever seen a player eliminated in GW's Warrior Knights...and now that I think about it, I'm not sure it's possible. Doesn't a Baron get a new starting home when his is wiped out?

Regardless, be sure to let us know what you think of the game!

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02 Jul 2015 13:00 #205281 by VonTush
Replied by VonTush on topic Player Elimination
Overall I don't have a problem with player elimination provided it happens during the end game of the game's story arc and they don't have a huge time investment to hang around and witness how the game resolves. There are times where I think it is appropriate.

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03 Jul 2015 09:53 #205344 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Player Elimination
For my own design, I think that I have found a compromise. Each player has a character, some followers, a hand of cards, and a secret agenda. If a character is killed, the player loses that character and the hand of cards, but he keeps any surviving followers and the secret agenda, because he is playing a group pursuing an agenda, not just the character leading that group. The player can stay in the game by just drawing a new lead character and a fresh hand of cards. So the character elimination is a definite setback, but not automatically a player elimination.

For other games, especially shorter games or games with a horror theme, I still think that player elimination is potentially a good mechanic.

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03 Jul 2015 13:01 #205351 by OldHippy
Replied by OldHippy on topic Player Elimination
Intellectually I think that player elimination is awesome. It's not some silly abstract measure like victory points.. It's a real thing. You got eliminated because you were doing so badly. It's as honest and up front as you can be about gaming results.

Realistically it certainly does suck and Reiner is pretty much right... but that doesn't make him actually right for everyone. I know that it sucks to be eliminated or even worse essentially eliminated from a game. I have experienced it first hand many times. I also know that playing with very little chance of winning is still better than not playing at all. None the less I stand by player elimination as a fine mechanic that definitely has a place and feels at least as real as any result possible in the gaming world.

It is generally seen as an antiquated mechanic in gaming but I don't think it's done yet. There is still some life in there if anyone wants to find interesting ways to deal with it (I like the sounds of what they've done with that Nevermore game). If I was game designer myself I think that it would be hard to not use player elimination at some point. It's easily the most 'elegant' (kind of a joke to use that word... it's intentional) end game mechanic out there. You are the last man left, you win. It couldn't be any simpler.

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03 Jul 2015 20:27 #205370 by MacDirk Diggler
Replied by MacDirk Diggler on topic Player Elimination
Risk
Monopoly
Axis and Allies
Bang!
Betrayal House on the Hill
Blood Feud New York
Heroscape
Jenga
King of Tokyo
Shadow Hunters
Samurai swords
Titan
Tsuro

Just a partial list of great games with player elimination.
Frankly, I don't understand why it's a problem for anyone. I would much rather be eliminated or have another player eliminated than sit there at the table as a lame duck for too long. Pete touched on some key issues with lame ducks. If I know I have no shot att winning I might try and help the game by putting pressure on the leader, but. I meta game my game group. So I tend to utter the word JIHAD and spend the rest of the game trying to make the person I feel is responsible for my demise wish he had picked on someone else. That person may not be the leader.

Risk legacy has a rule where you lose your entire army you are given a few units and allowed to reenter the game. What the hell is the point of that? I would love to hear an instance where someone parlayed that last gasp into a win.

I guess the question is are you happy to still be playing a game beyond the point you know you cannot win? For me the answer is usually no. Eliminate me, please.

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03 Jul 2015 21:24 #205372 by MacDirk Diggler
Replied by MacDirk Diggler on topic Player Elimination
Some more games that come to mind where you need some elimination

Love Letter
Coup
Werewolf

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03 Jul 2015 21:50 - 03 Jul 2015 23:21 #205373 by OldHippy
Replied by OldHippy on topic Player Elimination

Alastair MacDirk wrote: ...Jenga...


Jenga is an interesting selection. As it does almost the exact opposite of what most games do. There really isn't any player elimination, one person loses and that's it. That game is simply about finding www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-...ssel-to-penguins/out who the biggest loser is. I've always found that kind of fascinating. I think they put some rule in there like whoever last built up successfully before the towers collapse wins but we all know that all anyone pays attention to is who lost. Who ruined the tower. It's an odd mechanic.

Some of my favorite player elimination games.

Sac Noir (or Bausack)
Wiz War
Cutthroat Caverns
Rune Age
A lot of DoaM's

Or even light card games like crazy eight countdown where the first out wins but we keep playing until only one loser is left with their lonely hand. It's a reverse player elimination and in that case the first out wins... lots of card games work this way.
Last edit: 03 Jul 2015 23:21 by OldHippy.
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03 Jul 2015 21:52 #205374 by Motorik
Replied by Motorik on topic Player Elimination
Re: Diplomacy, it's still a brilliant gaming experience if you play it ANY OTHER WAY than literally tottering around the same room playing the same game for 12 hours.

In college, we would set the board up in a corner of a dorm room and resolve one move every couple of days, meaning there was ample time to chew over your secret plans via text or email, or while walking to class, while eating in the cafeteria, etc. Having to wait 48 hours between moves is just long enough to make you beautifully neurotic: wondering who might be plotting your demise while lying to your face, wondering whether you should reconsider backstabbing Austria and so on. Played like that, Diplomacy a really specific, special kind of experience and I can't think of anything else that even comes close. It amplifies the underlying paranoia that's, like, a crucial element to Diplomacy. That shit has you hearing Bernard Herrmann strings in your sleep. But, yeah, pile into a smelly room all day and a good chunk of the night? Yeah, no thanks, that sucks.

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06 Jul 2015 08:08 #205441 by sydo
Replied by sydo on topic Player Elimination
Titan is great, you just have to play it with >2 players at conventions only. That way, once a player is eliminated, they can go play something else. Or when we play 6 player games at my friend's - the first person eliminated serves as a bartender for the others while waiting for another player to get out. One of my favourite games ever.
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