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Shadows of Malice MEGATHREAD

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28 Jul 2015 19:16 #207325 by Gary Sax
Just got a copy of the expansion. I'll try the additions later, they are straightforward. But the reference cards the designer included are great and should absolutely be in every single copy.

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28 Jul 2015 20:14 - 28 Jul 2015 22:15 #207328 by Gary Sax
In the "seems useless but really, really is not" file. Flux shaper mastery. Can turn any type of damage into any other type of damage. Thing is, there is a fair amount of treasure that gives you immunity to a color. So if you have a fire shield, you can turn all your physical damage into fire and just stomp through. My only personal rule is that you can't change one to another more than once a round, so there's a little bit of risk if you run into a monster with multiple ways to deal damage at a time (e.g. physical attack and an acid kicker).

Still a badass combo.
Last edit: 28 Jul 2015 22:15 by Gary Sax.

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28 Jul 2015 22:37 - 28 Jul 2015 23:02 #207337 by Gary Sax
I don't even know if anyone reads this shit but I just finished the expansion game in question. I have a couple initial thoughts about the expansion and then a big time annoyance with the system that reared its ugly head this game.

In terms of expansion material... I'm just not seeing where you have enough time in the game to do even the simplest (therefore fastest) of the quests. They are a great idea and the mechanic is well realized, but by turn 6-8 or so shadows are pouring out of gates quickly and heading to wells to initiate the endgame, there's no way you can afford to take the 2-3 turns (at least) that doing one of these quests and returning it would give you. This is just an initial impression, but I am not seeing the utility.

In terms of my big time beef with the game, I just think that the high level encounters may not always work right. It's not just the rolling associated with them---sometimes in excess of 4-5 rolls per round rolling multiple dice. It's also the way that those rolls often lead to no result because of offsetting bonuses. So in the game I just finished I was having a blast until i got to the final boss. That boss, because of the combination of abilities in play on my and his side, made a single round go like this. All rolls, save step 5), are looking for 1-3 +0s, 4-6 +1s.

1) Characters decide whether to spend soulshards or drink potions.
2) Decide which character the boss will attack (die roll)
3) Roll CR roll modifiers. Depending which hero he attacked, that's different. For one hero, that's 2 die for the enemy and 1 die for me. For the other, 2 for enemy, 3 die for me.
4) Add up modifiers results from 3), give enemy off the top +3.
5) Roll dice to see who wins the combat. 2 dice for me (band of 2 heroes) 1 for him. Adjust by value calculated in 4)
6) Wounds. If it hits hero 1 (weak one), no damage because of immunity to lightning and power letting hero turn all damage to lightning. If hero 2, roll 5 dice for physical defense and 3 dice for enemy wounds. If I hit, roll 4 dice to wound. Enemy has 8 life points.
Now: back to 1)

That would all be complex, but it's the last boss battle, right? Of course, if you look carefully at the sequence of events above it means that the battle I've just described will go on for probably 30-50 rounds. I could have literally sat and rolled dice for perhaps 30 minutes.

Why? Strong enemies in this game just have a GIGANTIC and unfair feeling (though necessary to require teamwork) +CR roll off the top. If you don't win the CR roll-off, you do no damage. Enemy usually wins CR roll-offs with heroes because of that bonus, but this is modulated by how large your band is (how many dice you roll in the CR as the heroes). So heroes almost always have a shitty bonus to their dice roll, in the above example I've done a nice job getting about as good of one as I could (+3D*). You combine that with good armor and it's basically a question of losing fights over and over to a boss that automatically has high bonuses and hoping to roll a 6 on at least one of two dice while he rolls a 1 on one die. But then he is unlikely to wound me because I've got good armor and quaffed a great defense potion. I've had the opposite happen where I had an easy time beating an enemy but couldn't wound it because of its abilities and combat just draaaaaaged, but that situation is rarer.

One solution to this, proposed on the forums, is to nullify competing bonuses before rolling your results. It would make that combat go a LOT faster. So, if the enemy boss rolls two dice with +1 on a 4-6, and you roll 3 dice with +1 on a 4-6, why not just subtract the two and roll a single for the heroes that gets me a +1 on a 4-6? It's the same expected value. But what it does is get rid of the possibility of extreme results. Which you need! Remember that to do anything against a power 4-5 boss with a built in +3 or +4 to combat die rolling you need to gamble on getting some crazy corner set of results from the CR modifier roll-off and then getting the combat down to a +0 or +1 roll-off for the CR. That variability is important, ESPECIALLY to the outclassed heroes.

Anyway, sufficed to say it was kind of a disgusting combat and I just ended the game and assumed I'd won. But there's something seriously wonky about the end game combat with high power enemies (e.g. guardians and the last boss) and it's not just way too much dice rolling, though that is a factor. I think, ultimately, I am at a rough spot solo with this game because I hate trying to keep track of more than 2 characters, and to beat bosses that outclass you you have to count on being able to consistent roll 5s and 6s, which is your biggest advantage. It's hard for me, though, I have this problem in any solo game that solos best with more than two characters. My mind doesn't like keeping track of all that short term information and I can't really "get in the character" of either of them and enjoy the game very much. You also need more than two characters so you can split up the load and have one group go and do one thing while another guy goes and does some other thing and puts out fires.
Last edit: 28 Jul 2015 23:02 by Gary Sax.

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28 Jul 2015 23:51 #207344 by san il defanso
When I first bought the base game (still waiting to buy the expansion), I tried and quit several solo games up front. Almost all of them were an enormous hassle to me. I had a brutal time tracking with which avatar was doing what and yes, the sheer amount of die rolling was a bear to track with just one brain. It was so rocky that I worried I had bought a giant turd of a game. I was relieved when my multi-player game (seven people!) went so well, well enough that several players wanted to make plans then and there to play again.

I really like it, but it didn't work for me solo at all.

I wrote about it a while ago if you want to read it , though I'd hardly call it a review.
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29 Jul 2015 00:16 #207345 by Gary Sax
I will definitely keep that in mind---I think the system demands at least 3-4 and probably needs multiple minds in it too. It has the nice characteristic of having people being able to take simultaneous turns during non-combat turns, which is nice.

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29 Jul 2015 00:32 #207347 by san il defanso
The old school gamers here can better comment on this than I can, but to me Shadows of Malice feels like a total throwback to AH games in the 1980s. More accurately, it feels like my idea of those kinds of games. It's kind of arcane and complicated without being super complex, it seems to lack any knowledge for how things "should" be done, and it is stupid with die rolls. There are a lot of moments where it feels like it's taking the long way to arrive at a specific outcome. But with that it has a very loose playful feel. Barnes described it as the wild edge of gaming or something, and I think that's very accurate. School has prevented me from playing it again with other people, but that one session was so impressive it would probably get my GotY nod right now, and we haven't even seen the heavy half of the release year.

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29 Jul 2015 13:51 - 30 Jul 2015 10:56 #207386 by mikecl
Replied by mikecl on topic Shadows of Malice MEGATHREAD

Gary Sax wrote: I will definitely keep that in mind---I think the system demands at least 3-4 and probably needs multiple minds in it too. It has the nice characteristic of having people being able to take simultaneous turns during non-combat turns, which is nice.


I'm on an iPhone so I'm quoting your shorter thread but am really responding to the lengthy one.

Re: expansions. One of my big questions before I pre-ordered it was whether in fact you'd have enough time. Charlie in an earlier review and thread exchange seemed to think you would. I don't know. I'm still waiting for mine but there can be lot of downtime when you're just on your way somewhere with no actions to take so I'm hopeful.

On the difficulty for tougher monsters like Shadows and Well Guardians I'm finding you need three Avatars to get those three dice and to maximize your odds of getting a better die roll. I also tend to funnel all the best stuff to one Avatar whose mastery makes him the best fighter then lure the beasts to him with crystals. In most of my games this cuts down on combat length substantially. In our last game the Blood Caller was rolling two dice to inflict extra damage, had a cloak and a shield for a +2 CR reduction on the opponent and a Sword with a +1 CR, +2 against Guardians, Shadows and Xuthul.

We kept coloured crystals to add +2 to CR rolls where possible. And it all seemed to work.
Last edit: 30 Jul 2015 10:56 by mikecl.

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29 Jul 2015 14:00 - 29 Jul 2015 14:01 #207387 by Gary Sax
The designer messaged me with sort of the same message on BGG, and I agree with with him and you re: more avatars and especially pushing yourself over the top with lots of gems.

I would say, however, still, that it's not great that I've had several situations in about 4-5 games where combat could continue almost indefinitely (another one was with a guardian who had the "Blink" power, there was I think one more). I get that you definitely don't want to get into that situation, and I'd almost feel better about it if he massacred me and I moved on since I was low on crystals and I had no other choice. But if the system can generate long, indecisive combats where turn after turn people are regenerating health, not hurting each other, etc... it's kind of a problem, even if it's not super common.

Anyway, I still quite like the game and will be playing it more.
Last edit: 29 Jul 2015 14:01 by Gary Sax.

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30 Jul 2015 10:59 #207447 by mikecl
Replied by mikecl on topic Shadows of Malice MEGATHREAD

Gary Sax wrote: But if the system can generate long, indecisive combats where turn after turn people are regenerating health, not hurting each other, etc... it's kind of a problem, even if it's not super common.


Yeah I have to agree with you there. That can, and has, happened to me too.

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30 Jul 2015 11:13 #207448 by san il defanso

mikecl wrote:

Gary Sax wrote: But if the system can generate long, indecisive combats where turn after turn people are regenerating health, not hurting each other, etc... it's kind of a problem, even if it's not super common.


Yeah I have to agree with you there. That can, and has, happened to me too.


Doesn't that make the combat futile, or are we talking about different circumstances? I feel like the game has some provision to keep endless combat from happening...

Note that I didn't bother to look up any rules before posting this.

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30 Jul 2015 11:20 - 30 Jul 2015 11:21 #207449 by Gary Sax
Not exactly---it's not that you're immune completely, that would create futility and make Shadows and Guardians rematerialize (I don't remember about lairs)---it's that you're rolling enough dice in CR adjust/CR/defense/wounds/specials in such a way as to make wounds and an outcome happen eventually, but only after many, many iterations and corner case rolls.
Last edit: 30 Jul 2015 11:21 by Gary Sax.
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30 Jul 2015 13:25 #207475 by Space Ghost

Gary Sax wrote: Not exactly---it's not that you're immune completely, that would create futility and make Shadows and Guardians rematerialize (I don't remember about lairs)---it's that you're rolling enough dice in CR adjust/CR/defense/wounds/specials in such a way as to make wounds and an outcome happen eventually, but only after many, many iterations and corner case rolls.



In situations like this, you should just write a little script where you can enter in the modifiers and let the computer give you the results. That kind of is disappointing in a lot of ways, but it is a quick fix that retains the variability that is in the design and the results are instantaneous.
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05 Feb 2016 08:54 #221769 by Gary Sax
www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1520334/shadows-malice-sold-out

This was nice news, by the way. Reminds me to get it out on the table again and play solo.
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05 Feb 2016 09:33 #221775 by charlest
I need to get it back out too. I get distracted with new games and forget about it, but every time I see it on my shelf and remember how much fun I've had I feel the pull.
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05 Feb 2016 09:39 #221777 by repoman
Just ordered the expansion. Don't want to get boned like I did with Clash of Cultures/Merchants and Marauders by waiting too long.

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