Osprey Games to Publish Escape from Colditz

stoic wrote:

...Now began the end game. Colonel Willy Tod, the senior British officer, went to the Kommandant and demanded to know his intentions. The reply was ominous: he awaited orders from Himmler, the notorious head of the SS.

Remember that at Colditz there were several special prisoners (Prominente) with relations in high places, including relations of the Queen. They were hostages for Hitler, although the Germans would never admit it. But the Kommandant was a worried man. He knew that if he failed to deliver the prisoners safely to the Allied forces he would be in trouble, but if he disobeyed orders he would likely be shot out of hand. Delicate negotiations continued....

Yes, he awaited orders from one of the top men of Germany which he all but disobeyed. If you get a hard-on from playing with swastikas then that is for you but the rest of the gaming world don't need them to make their game look legit.

Southernman wrote:

stoic wrote:

...Now began the end game. Colonel Willy Tod, the senior British officer, went to the Kommandant and demanded to know his intentions. The reply was ominous: he awaited orders from Himmler, the notorious head of the SS.

Remember that at Colditz there were several special prisoners (Prominente) with relations in high places, including relations of the Queen. They were hostages for Hitler, although the Germans would never admit it. But the Kommandant was a worried man. He knew that if he failed to deliver the prisoners safely to the Allied forces he would be in trouble, but if he disobeyed orders he would likely be shot out of hand. Delicate negotiations continued....

Yes, he awaited orders from one of the top men of Germany which he all but disobeyed. If you get a hard-on from playing with swastikas then that is for you but the rest of the gaming world don't need them to make their game look legit.

My apologies, Southernman, if I've offended you. A hard-on for Nazi symbols, me? Uh, No. I just don't care for historical revision. It's censorship that offends me.

More on Colditz history...the Nazi referenced below got a hard-on playing with swastikas and the SS. He received a lighter sentence though for refusing to kill high-profile POW's at Colditz. He was adjudged, however, to have committed numerous other war crimes. He was the official Nazis SS military commander of all German POW camps and prisons at the time of the Colditz liberation in 1945.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlob_Berger

A distant relative of mine served in WWII as one of the judges at the Nuremberg Military Tribunals for Nazi war criminals. Our State's law school is also named after another of these Nuremberg judge, Paul M. Hebert. They maintain a Nuremberg archive there. I've dabbled lightly with the archive in search of my relative's photo.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Command_Trial
digitalcommons.law.lsu.edu/nuremberg/

I guess any historical revision of Colditz is more interesting to me for personal reasons.

I think you're right that today's board gaming community at large couldn't care less and couldn't be less informed about history. Again, my apologies for wasting time on this issue.

Spoken like a man who isn't putting thirty thousand pounds up front on a product that won't be able to sell in Germany or France.

I believe in freedom of expression as well, so who am I to tell Osprey what to say?

Southernman wrote: I don't see the requirement to plaster swastikas over it.

Southernman wrote: If you get a hard-on from playing with swastikas then that is for you but the rest of the gaming world don't need them to make their game look legit.

The inclusion of Nazi symbols in a game about a Nazi prison is not only accurate, but necessary. Opposing their inclusion or replacing them with lesser, ahistorical symbols is an excercise in whitewashing and a huge disrespect to the people who were made prisoner there, including the designer of the game.

Erik Twice wrote:

Southernman wrote: I don't see the requirement to plaster swastikas over it.

Southernman wrote: If you get a hard-on from playing with swastikas then that is for you but the rest of the gaming world don't need them to make their game look legit.

The inclusion of Nazi symbols in a game about a Nazi prison is not only accurate, but necessary. Opposing their inclusion or replacing them with lesser, ahistorical symbols is an excercise in whitewashing and a huge disrespect to the people who were made prisoner there, including the designer of the game.

Are you for real, how is a WW2 POW game with German symbols other than a swastika white-washing history ? Are you then going to bag the hundreds of wargames out there that represent Nazi Germany killing people for not using swastikas ? For fucks sake, we are talking about a POW camp that locked up soldiers and did not execute any of them but it has to have a swastika on the game box but wargames that represent Germany invading Russia with SS troops and special police execution squads in the vanguard gets a waiver - what fucking planet do you live on ?

Southernman wrote: For fucks sake, we are talking about a POW camp that locked up soldiers and did not execute any of them but it has to have a swastika on the game box but wargames that represent Germany invading Russia with SS troops and special police execution squads in the vanguard gets a waiver - what fucking planet do you live on ?

I have no idea what you are talking about, I have never mentioned the cover or any wargame much less gave them "a waiver". You are arguing with yourself.

Swastika talk aside. I'm more concerned with why more than a few people are saying the game play is broken. Could someone explain why they believe that ?

I'm more concerned that people seem to be taking this game seriously, but maybe I misremember it. Cos in the early 80s when I last saw it, despite the "cool" factor of an interesting idea and theme it seemed pretty crap. Didnt it end up just rolling a die moving a pawn down a single square wide tunnel. The only fond memories I have are lame ass german accent impersonations while saying "Escape from prison is no longer a sport" or whatever the buzz slogan was.
Of course, we were kids when we played it so maybe we didnt appreciate that it wasnt just like Monopoly so I'd be interested in anyone who played the game as a "grown up" describing the game in a mini summary with reference to the kinds of games widely available today.....

allismom3 wrote: Swastika talk aside. I'm more concerned with why more than a few people are saying the game play is broken. Could someone explain why they believe that ?

For the prisoner players, the game is about collecting sets of cards representing escape equipment. Once you'd collected your 'escape kit' you could attempt your escape. The problem was that any halfway competent German player could just block the entrances to the castle's various rooms so that you couldn't even collect your escape kits. And that was just the half of it, but my 40-year old memories of the game get vague at this point. Just like Ancient_of_MuMu this was the first game I ever realised was broken. The long and the short of it is that I wouldn't recommend this game to anyone.

allismom3 wrote: Swastika talk aside. I'm more concerned with why more than a few people are saying the game play is broken. Could someone explain why they believe that ?

The prisoners always win. It has been a long time since I played as a kid, but I don't remember there being a time limit and I think the Germans win by capturing escaping prisoners. So my memory is that the prisoners just wait and collect resources and don't act until their escape plan is perfect.

JMcL63 wrote:

allismom3 wrote: Swastika talk aside. I'm more concerned with why more than a few people are saying the game play is broken. Could someone explain why they believe that ?

For the prisoner players, the game is about collecting sets of cards representing escape equipment. Once you'd collected your 'escape kit' you could attempt your escape. The problem was that any halfway competent German player could just block the entrances to the castle's various rooms so that you couldn't even collect your escape kits. And that was just the half of it, but my 40-year old memories of the game get vague at this point. Just like Ancient_of_MuMu this was the first game I ever realised was broken. The long and the short of it is that I wouldn't recommend this game to anyone.

Interesting that my memory as to why it was broken was for the complete opposite reasons. Maybe me and my siblings were incompetent guards.

Erik Twice wrote:

Southernman wrote: For fucks sake, we are talking about a POW camp that locked up soldiers and did not execute any of them but it has to have a swastika on the game box but wargames that represent Germany invading Russia with SS troops and special police execution squads in the vanguard gets a waiver - what fucking planet do you live on ?

I have no idea what you are talking about, I have never mentioned the cover or any wargame much less gave them "a waiver". You are arguing with yourself.

"The inclusion of Nazi symbols in a game about a Nazi prison is not only accurate, but necessary."
Then what the fuck was that comment ?! You said it was necessary to put a Nazi symbol on a game about a Nazi prison, I asked what about all the wargames that actually represent Nazi troops killing people - where is your requirement for swastikas on those games ? I made sure I typed it slowly since you obviously need it explained slowly.

allismom3 wrote: Swastika talk aside. I'm more concerned with why more than a few people are saying the game play is broken. Could someone explain why they believe that ?

Basically, there are many rules that are unenforceable, many aspects of the game can be bypassed with very little strategy and there are several exploits that simply break everything the game tries to achieve. It simply doesn't work.

For example, the guards can make the game unwinnable for the prisoners by blocking certain entrances. This is a serious problem so a rule was included to prevent it. The problem is that the rule is so diffuse so as to be meaningless. Does moving up and down on the same corridor count as blocking? Does rotating different pawns to keep the same spaced occupied count as blocking? Is it blocking if I don't block the entrance, just all accesses to it?

Similarly, can you immediately re-arrest a prisoner that just got out of the cell? Do you need one rope per pawn or one rope per team? You must keep at least two prisoners on a tunnel, does that mean that one is always trapped? If you play a card saying my pass is invalid, can I try it again this turn with the same pass? And why do guns kill around corners?

The whole game suffers from a serious lack of definition in its rules. It works only as long as you play in a really naïve manner and the thought of, well, blocking or depleting resources or the like doesn't cross your mind. It just doesn't work. It's simply not complete, you cannot play it without donning your designer hat at some point and adding rules of your own. Rules which are not obvious and only create more exceptions down the road.

The game is also broken on a strategic level, if the rules don't prevent the prisoners from escaping, nothing will because the game is extremely unbalanced. Basically, it's tag and there are waaay more prisoners than guards, they can move through routes that the guards can't and simply end up with enough of a head start that it's extremely easy to win. And the end game condition is not even set in stone, you are supposed to stop the game at some point from 2 to 3 hours but which probably shouldn't even be 1 even in the case such a condition makes sense.

Really, it just doesn't work. You are going to sit down and the moment you explain the rules someone will find an extremely obvious exploit that makes the game unplayable. And even if you patch the rules, there will be some incredibly dumb strategy that is just unbetable. It just doesn't work.

Southernman wrote: I made sure I typed it slowly since you obviously need it explained slowly.

The way you behave on the forums over the smallest difference of opinion is just sad.

I get freedom of expression and all that - I really do. But there will always be laws governing what you can't say without being punished (the famous example being shouting "fire!" in a full theatre). And in Germany the law specifically forbids the use of swastikas for reasons which should be obvious. Not allowing the swastika in Germany has nothing at all to do with whitewashing, but everything to do with a nation that remembers the atrocities it commmited. If you've ever been to Germany you'll know that they have a lot of monuments to WWII and the holocaust and to say that not putting a symbol on a board game is disrespectful is a bit much.

Ancient_of_MuMu wrote: Interesting that my memory as to why it was broken was for the complete opposite reasons. Maybe me and my siblings were incompetent guards.

See Erik's post (his memory is obviously way better than mine).