Let's Talk: Scythe

I don't think it's very much like Eclipse. I think it's more like Clash of Cultures, but more multiplayer solitaire. You ~can~ fight and sometimes it makes sense to.

The "strength" of Scythe is that it makes you decide to do a lot of shit that has a plus and minus, so you have to "carefully weigh the interesting decisions".

I feel dumber for having said "interesting decisions"

SuperflyTNT wrote: I don't think it's very much like Eclipse. I think it's more like Clash of Cultures, but more multiplayer solitaire. You ~can~ fight and sometimes it makes sense to.

Well that nails it. I don't like Clash of Cultures either.

My bro backed the KS and has played many games of this over the past 2-3 weeks, and likes it well enough. I showed him this thread and he noticed a few things:

-Apparently the board shown in Pete's picture is from a P&P or prototype or something as it's different from what he has - it matters because the picture shows an additionnal level of popularity, which makes for many more points through that and a huge difference;
-According to the narrative, it seems like you awarded bonus points in the end game for upgrades, instead of remaining resources? He found your summary confusing and sometimes contradicting itself;
-Trying to stick a finger in every pie (as in Agricola) isn't the way to go in Scythe.

I got that pic of the web. The board I played on was the 250$ "Too Much Money To Piss Away" pledge. It was MASSIVE, 2-piece board. Opposite side had smaller board.

Ah, that's right, it was resources, not upgrades. Thanks for the correction.

You kind of have to put fingers in pies, though, to get stars. At least 5 pies, if you get 2 combat stars.

That pledge was actually only like $100. You were joking I think, but I really wish I maintained my pledge (I backed out last second).

As much as I didn't like the look of this game (and comparisons to eclipse jives with my instinct) I can't help but compare the complaints to something like "I can't win with combat" when playing as Planta in that game, or Nurgle in Chaos. You'd have to pick a faction that can exploit that strategy.

Legomancer wrote: I want to like Eclipse much more than I do. I don't like the random VP tiles, and I don't like that you can send a guy with a pointed stick into a space battle and get a VP pull just for showing up. I don't like the endgame where everyone just builds tech they don't care about for VPs. Eclipse strikes me as a game that claims to be competing with TI3 but is actually competing with Nexus Ops; it's just added a bunch of pointless bling on top to disguise it.

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Been awhile since I played, but IIRC even if you lose the battle, you have to kill an enemy ship to get a tile pull. Still, I get what you are saying.

Nah, you don't have to kill an enemy ship. You get 1 tile draw if you just stay in the combat and don't retreat.

JEM - I don't think that's completely fair to Pete. White can attack without impunity if they get perform an upgrade, but all of the other factions can't attack a whole bunch without losing Popularity.

I think it's more about picking the right timing to fight, or simply threatening violence by shoring up boundaries as opposed to actually fighting. The game certainly features much less overall fighting than Eclipse and Chaos in the Old World.

charlest wrote: That pledge was actually only like $100. You were joking I think, but I really wish I maintained my pledge (I backed out last second).

He said he paid $250 bucks for his. It had the resin, painted bits (and metal metal), the coins, the double sided map with extender, Kickstarter exclusive shit (so he said, I didn't follow it so I don't know), but he didn't specify if he got it aftermarket or if he pledged. All I know is he paid $250.00 for a lot of great tokens to use in better games >

As far as "combat", Jem, it's like this:
You move into a territory using "Move" action. Your power track is military might, and you can pledge up to seven points max (or as much as you have) and can play 1 power card (1-5 value) for every mech or leader you have in the battle. Winner is the one with highest score, ties go to attacker. The result is that you move the defeated party's shit back to their starting base circle, and if they bid at least 1 power, they gain a new power card. If they had a building there, it stays put. If they had resources there, they stay put.

The thing is that the power track also counts for a star. If you can get 15 (I think it was 15) power on the track, you immediately put a star on the star track at the top, which scores 3-5 VPs at the end of the game. The winner of the fight also gains a star (up to 2 stars max per player, normally). So, in combat, the winner gains a star, potentially, and the loser's resources that were in the hex, but loses 1 Popularity for every worker who got sent home. Yes, the loser's workers and mechs/leader just go home without other burdens, and they get a free power card. They don't die, they just flee. So, let's say that you're attacking 2-3 squares away, on their next turn they can just come back at you and kick your ass for their own star. If they have the power card from the "Factory" (center tile) that allows them a couple of free moves, they may have a better card, and if you expended your power to fight them, you're left with your dick in your hand and with no real way to stop them. If you have ZERO power left, when you die, you don't even get a card because you couldn't bid a power point.

Fucking lame.

Realistically, the only impetus to fight is either on the second to last round, if you've got high popularity or can use a Bolster action on the last turn to get it into the next-highest bracket. Then, you get a star, you get the hex for a hex bonus, and potentially get some points for resources. Fighting early doesn't really make a lot of sense because it can cripple you and leave you open for what I described early.

If anything, it's a "mutually assured destruction" mechanic where nobody really wants to start any shit because it's just too costly. Granted, if you just fight a space with a worker, the worker flees and (correct me, Charlie) you don't lose a popularity point and they don't gain a card because no "fight" really ever happened. The worker just saw this Wild Wild West spidermonster coming and got the fuck out of dodge. But that said, the max worker count is 8, and because of the nature of the action allocations, you don't want one guy standing around anyhow because he's not an efficient worker. Further, it goes against the M.A.D. concept because there's no real consequence for attacking someone (s)he's alone and undefended. So, in reality, you get a lot of spaces where you've got 3-4 guys standing around with a mech, which would cause you to lose 1/6 or ~1/5 of the max populrity (3/18, 4/18) just to get a star (which is now worth less), some resources, and give the enemy a card and a walk home, which may actually help him if he's far away and you wanted him on a particular hex closer to home.

The last round is the only time it really makes sense to leave single dudes alone and undefended, because of the end-game hex bonus.

If he paid $250 it's because he bought it second hand at an inflated price.

It's the $99 collector's edition level:
www.kickstarter.com/projects/jameystegmaier/scythe/description

Moving isn't quite as easy as you make it seem Pete. With a normal move action you can move 2 (or 3 if upgraded) units 1 space (2 spaces if you have the Mech upgrade). With the Factory card you can move just 1 unit 2 spaces (or 3 spaces with the Mech upgrade).

If you're fighting near the middle of the board there's no way everything you displaced can get to you from a single move action. So you cost them at least 2 actions, and possibly 3 if they don't have all of the upgrades. That's somewhat significant depending on board state/goals/resources.

If you take their resources and spend them, they lost a few turns out of that combat. That's huge in a game that features probably 15ish turns per player (not exactly sure on how many turns but that seems correct.

Pete - you do lose Popularity if you scare away undefended workers. This is another reason to spread out and control territory/deny. Then you cause your opponent to make tough choices.

I'd argue that fighting early for the Factory or a star is worthwhile, but this is coming from my vast experience of four solo games.

Fighting is definitely self-limiting. Like everything else in the game, Power isn't just lying around, and there aren't any gotcha cards a'la Clash of Cultures.

I know it was on this site where I saw (don't remember who said it) that CoC has the problem where if your neighbor wants to play Risk, then you're playing Risk. I think fighting is nerfed by design in Scythe, just to keep that from happening. I'll get a chance to play a genuine multiplayer game of it this Friday, so I'll see.

charlest wrote: If he paid $250 it's because he bought it second hand at an inflated price.

It's the $99 collector's edition level:
www.kickstarter.com/projects/jameystegmaier/scythe/description

If he splurged on add-ons and included shipping, it might have been close to $250.

He did have an art book, but I have no clue where/how. He said $250 and I let out a little laugh. Still feel bad, he's a nice guy.

I think Robert nailed it - if your neighbor is playing Agricola and you're trying to play Risk, it doesn't work out. I think if you played it 5 times with the same players and everyone was kind of "engaged" it would make for more fun, maybe.

With 3, you ALWAYS get the Sergeant bonus, which is pretty big, and the map has less stuff. My special mech power was to warp to unoccupied bases when moving so I pretty much did that to avoid their forces from taking my shit (the "can't cross into certain spaces over a river" rule is absurd). Seemed like that's what the game wanted me to do.

Also, I avoided center because another guy took it and put 3 workers there to deny me. Didn't want to lose ALL my P points. I don't think I got more than 7 the whole game.

Columbob wrote:

charlest wrote: If he paid $250 it's because he bought it second hand at an inflated price.

It's the $99 collector's edition level:
www.kickstarter.com/projects/jameystegmaier/scythe/description

If he splurged on add-ons and included shipping, it might have been close to $250.

Sure, but the only add-on which he wouldn't have already gotten was the art book for $23. He could have added extra resources/coins but they're extras and wouldn't do anything specifically for Scythe.

SuperflyTNT wrote: He did have an art book, but I have no clue where/how. He said $250 and I let out a little laugh. Still feel bad, he's a nice guy.

I think Robert nailed it - if your neighbor is playing Agricola and you're trying to play Risk, it doesn't work out. I think if you played it 5 times with the same players and everyone was kind of "engaged" it would make for more fun, maybe.

With 3, you ALWAYS get the Sergeant bonus, which is pretty big, and the map has less stuff. My special mech power was to warp to unoccupied bases when moving so I pretty much did that to avoid their forces from taking my shit (the "can't cross into certain spaces over a river" rule is absurd). Seemed like that's what the game wanted me to do.

Also, I avoided center because another guy took it and put 3 workers there to deny me. Didn't want to lose ALL my P points. I don't think I got more than 7 the whole game.

Putting 3 workers on the middle for most of the game is a horrible move, tell me that guy didn't win.