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× Talk about the latest and greatest AT, and the Classics.

Let's Talk about Conan

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04 Dec 2016 12:13 #239754 by jur
Replied by jur on topic Let's Talk about Conan

hotseatgames wrote: I disagree that the rule book cover depicts a rape about to occur. I think it depicts Conan saving her from being sacrificed. That's it.


Too bad, because such a glitch gives the gamergate crew their chance to discredit her. I own Conan, so I apparently have made my choice, but I think she has a point that this Conan product continues certain male and female stereotypes.

I liked this articles that suggests that although parts of Howard's works (and his private correspondence) contain many racist elements, Conan seems reasonably free of that and can be enjoyed without too much cringing. The art becomes separated from the man. Just like with the works of Lovecraft and just like you can enjoy music from composers with racist views.
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04 Dec 2016 12:26 #239755 by hotseatgames
Replied by hotseatgames on topic Let's Talk about Conan
She doesn't need to be discredited. It's her opinion. Just like my statement is mine. And it's a piece of art; it's subjective by its nature. I don't entirely disagree with her. And I did NOT vote for Trump.

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04 Dec 2016 15:18 #239767 by John Myers
Replied by John Myers on topic Let's Talk about Conan
I absolutely think the intention behind the cover is to depict Conan rescuing a princess and I immediately made that assumption when I saw it.

But that said I am:
- aware that the male character is a common depiction of Conan and that rescuing princesses and not raping them is a thing Conan does
- aware of the general tropes of heroic fantasy, where rescuing princesses rather than raping them is also common
- aware that there is a scenario in the base game where Conan and crew rescue a princess

However, if you look at the painting without those assumptions, as a lot of people who are not Conan, heroic fantasy or board game fans might, what you have is:
- a large, heavily armed, mostly naked man
- who is looming over an unconsciousness, mostly naked woman
- the woman is being restrained, presumably against her will

And I don't think it's unreasonable to feel that somewhere in the process someone should have been able to say "I understand what we're going for here, but maybe we should make a few changes just to be safe." And I think it's part of a very real frustration with overall nerd targeted entertainment field (not just board games) that tends to forget that not everyone comes to its products with the same experiences and expectations.
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04 Dec 2016 16:00 - 04 Dec 2016 20:26 #239768 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Let's Talk about Conan
I did not back Conan for many reasons, but I do enjoy the REH stories, Conan the Barbarian film, the Dark Horse comics, and S&S in general. I don't think people who enjoy these are rapist sympathizers, but I think she does bring up some valid points. I'm only going to address the rule book illustration.

First, here's a real artist's take on what appears to be Conan rescuing a woman in distress. Presumably, she is captured here against her will and about to be used as a sacrifice. Her body is turned toward her would be rescuer, giving us only the side, obviously in the hopes of watching him throttle this wizard. Conan himself is focused solely on the evil sorceror and the havoc he's going to wreck on the foul wizard. This image sort of tells a story, and what the princess to be rescued means can be discussed, but there's a tale to the image which paints an image of Conan as a hero and the viewer hoping he succeeds in slaying the wizard.



Now, let's look at a similar image designed to sell product to nerds. Cynthia is right to point out how she's glowing like a treasure. Both breasts are in full view, but not only that for a lady that's unconscious, why is her hip pivoted so we get a front crotch shot as well as she lays helpless below Conan's manhood? Is she being rescued by Conan or is he returning to his lair to enjoy his 'prize'? I see no threat...why are his blades drawn? This image looks to be nothing more than an attempt at titilation and exploitation. This image paints little more than a musclebound warrior standing over a helpless woman to do with as he pleases.



There does seem to be a difference to me.
Last edit: 04 Dec 2016 20:26 by Mr. White.
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04 Dec 2016 16:02 - 04 Dec 2016 16:21 #239769 by Michael Barnes
The first thing I thought when I saw the picture (well, after 'alright, skeletons!') was "well shit, gotta keep that out of view".

Let's not pretend that the image is not HOWLINGLY sexist and out of date. It is irredeemably tacky, tasteless and even offensive. And I am coming from a position of being aware of and understanding not just the original Howard stories but also things like the classic Frazetta illustrations the piece is obviously referencing. I get it. But for a 2015 board game (see what I did there) it comes across as pretty crude. I'm not a prude in any way, I've laughed at folks that have had a hissy fit over things like nudity on classical statues pictured in games. But this is slightly different because there is a question of intent and a very clear psychological angle that she pointed out quite well in the article. I appreciate Conan-inspired art being a little lusty, lascivious and just shy of bawdy. But there are some elements here that are toeing the line for sure.

I'd have much rather have seen Red Sonja (or Belit) fighting those skeletons alongside Conan. Not a naked, glowing "trophy" girl on an altar. Don't kid yourself that the whole piece is not about sexual conquest and "reward" with a vulnerable, naked woman surrounded by violence. The implications are obvious, and romantic, egalitarian sex is not one of them.

I also think it is disingenuous when men pretend like pulp fiction from Howard's era wasn't stuffed to the gills with racism, sexism, xenophobia, colonialism and lots of other white man attitudes. It's impossible to avoid. But it is like encountering Wagner...the questionable politics are part of the package, but you have to be able to discern for yourself where those lines lie. I remember someone said once that if we held all of the artists we like accountable for their opinions and politics in comparison to our own...we'd never like anybody.

But with a commercial product like this, it's not hard to wind up at a "what were they thinking" response to this cover.

"In our opinion, Smell the Glove".
Last edit: 04 Dec 2016 16:21 by Michael Barnes.
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04 Dec 2016 16:02 #239770 by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic Let's Talk about Conan
Great link, btw, thank you. Good read.

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04 Dec 2016 17:53 #239776 by wadenels
Replied by wadenels on topic Let's Talk about Conan
I really like the first pic in Jeff White's post. It raises some questions about what is happening in the scene at first glance, and I spent a couple minutes figuring out what the illustration was trying to convey.

The second pic doesn't need more than a glance because it looks like a whole lot of teenage fuck-yeah-awesome and nothing else.
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04 Dec 2016 18:57 #239783 by Michael Barnes
It's a little more than that though when not only are there two knives pointing at her crotch, but also a silhouette of cock and balls.
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04 Dec 2016 19:49 #239788 by stoic
Replied by stoic on topic Let's Talk about Conan
How can the Conan picture be sexist? Conan is barechested so the artist depicts his female counterpart as barechested too. Conan wears a codpiece and so his female counterpart wears a proportionally correct codpiece per her diminutive size in the portrait too. That's equality. Conan isn't white, whatever that label means. He's Cimmerian which means that he's evolved from ape-men who devolved from Atlanteans. Conan isn't a rapist. None of Howard's stories have him raping or taking advantage of women unless it's consensual; rather, he mostly rescues them from evil doers because they need rescuing. Conan displays his weaponry because sheathed swords aren't ready for action and you need a sword in a sword fight. ;-) Howard was one of the first authors of his time to portray strong female heroines who beat up men: Valeria and Red Sonja.

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04 Dec 2016 20:10 #239789 by hotseatgames
Replied by hotseatgames on topic Let's Talk about Conan
What I really wish was that this game was perfect and the sexism / racism was all we had to complain about.
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04 Dec 2016 20:41 - 04 Dec 2016 20:51 #239792 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Let's Talk about Conan
Regarding the equality of nudity in the second image, the issue isn't one showing more skin than the other, but in how or why, the skin is shown.

Conan's is presented as a mountain of muscle for men to admire and aspire to. It's as if the artist wants the viewer to want to _be_ him.

The woman's posture and submission is presented to arouse and titillate. It's as if the artist wants the viewer to want to _take_ her.

I'm sure someone can phrase this much better.
Last edit: 04 Dec 2016 20:51 by Mr. White.
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04 Dec 2016 20:49 #239793 by Michael Barnes

hotseatgames wrote: What I really wish was that this game was perfect and the sexism / racism was all we had to complain about.


Hear hear. There's so much that could be great in it that is matched up with just as many fumbles...the whole thing feels halfway there. It feels like an unfinished half of a really awesome game polished up to make it playable...or shippable to KS backers.

It's a real mess...that river thing on the Book of Skelos is genius...so why the hell aren't the hero actions set up on that kind of schedule? They have a completely different and much less interesting mechanic. All these cool non combat abilities! That you don't actually get to use! Cool scenarios but they seem incredibly fragile. It's one of those games where you are never quite sure if you are playing it right...but the rules aren't very complex.

And no skeletons, WTF.
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04 Dec 2016 20:54 #239794 by stoic
Replied by stoic on topic Let's Talk about Conan

Mr. White wrote: The woman's posture and submission is presented to arouse and titillate. It's as if the artist wants the viewer to want to _take_ her...


She could have a broken hip, or the ancient stone altar isn't flat, but, has a stony lump.

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04 Dec 2016 22:12 #239796 by hotseatgames
Replied by hotseatgames on topic Let's Talk about Conan

Michael Barnes wrote:

hotseatgames wrote: What I really wish was that this game was perfect and the sexism / racism was all we had to complain about.


Hear hear. There's so much that could be great in it that is matched up with just as many fumbles...the whole thing feels halfway there. It feels like an unfinished half of a really awesome game polished up to make it playable...or shippable to KS backers.

It's a real mess...that river thing on the Book of Skelos is genius...so why the hell aren't the hero actions set up on that kind of schedule? They have a completely different and much less interesting mechanic. All these cool non combat abilities! That you don't actually get to use! Cool scenarios but they seem incredibly fragile. It's one of those games where you are never quite sure if you are playing it right...but the rules aren't very complex.

And no skeletons, WTF.


Exactly. When it clicks, it is great. Hopefully it gets there. The heroes being able to mix up their turns and go all out or hold back is really cool.

Regarding the rule book painting... am I totally incorrect that Conan is looking at the viewer, NOT at the girl? That's always how I saw it.

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04 Dec 2016 23:57 #239800 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Let's Talk about Conan

stoic wrote:

Mr. White wrote: The woman's posture and submission is presented to arouse and titillate. It's as if the artist wants the viewer to want to _take_ her...


She could have a broken hip, or the ancient stone altar isn't flat, but, has a stony lump.


ok...maybe....seems a bit charitable. Still, even if we suppose that. Conan's body is presented as a base of strength and power...all those swords help. The woman's naked form is exposed and vulnerable...nobody wants to be in that position.

I'm having a hard time buying that the two depictions of nudity are equal.

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