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× Talk about the latest and greatest AT, and the Classics.

Let's commiserate: Risk SW edition

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17 Mar 2017 14:18 #245312 by Michael Barnes
What is this talk that the Luke vs. Vader part doesn't matter? IT'S LUKE VS. VADER. Of course it fucking matters!

I've played this game quite possibly more than any other single title for the past two years and with a broad range of folks including small children, old folks, complete non-gamers, and at least one person that hates SW. Not a single one has complained about any of the "issues". All (but that one dude) have loved the balls-out Star Warsyness of it all. It seems like this game is really running contrary to how people think about hobby games today and that is causing a lot of over-think about it. It is CLASSIC Ameritrash in the CLASSIC sense, and it is a mainstream, mass-market game...not some rinky dink Treefrog thing designed to appeal to about 1000 people worldwide.

It is absolutely better than Rebellion. Rebellion has a lot of really cool things going on, but it's also cumbersome and has some pretty shit ideas too. I like the game, don't love it, but think that somewhere in there is the ultimate SW game. Risk SW, for right now...IS the ultimate SW game. It gets everything just right INCLUDING the mainstream accessibility.
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17 Mar 2017 14:26 - 17 Mar 2017 14:28 #245314 by san il defanso
There is very likely a good mathematical reason why Charlie is right, but thankfully it hasn't manifested for me yet. In practice it's still a fun game, though I confess that most of my games of it have been with my seven-year-old son, not the typical BGG gamer. That might have something to do with it.

Honestly, I'm fine if it has some issues there. It's been a lot of fun for me, and it's definitely the kind of Star Wars game we need more of. I do sometimes feel that it's just a little too stripped down, but whatever. I like it. Although, for my money, the best mainstream Star Wars game is Epic Duels. Let's bring that one back, huh Hasbro?

Whatever the case with the actual design, this has all the earmarks of a game that will be worth a lot of money in about 10 years.
Last edit: 17 Mar 2017 14:28 by san il defanso.

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17 Mar 2017 14:29 - 17 Mar 2017 14:30 #245316 by charlest

Michael Barnes wrote: What is this talk that the Luke vs. Vader part doesn't matter? IT'S LUKE VS. VADER. Of course it fucking matters!


Wanting the mechanisms to reinforce that isn't unreasonable.

C'mon, What if the reward was literally nothing? But it's LUKE VS. VADER! AWESOME! Expecting reasonable balance from a game, even a light one, should be a standard in 2016. If this was a Kickstarter game you'd throw it under the bus for lack of playtesting.

After my first play when I lost the Vader struggle and realized all of the actions I spent and got nothing out of, I started thinking about the math behind it. I didn't overthink, I just didn't shut my brain off when playing.

In Queen's Gambit, spending actions on the Jedi fight, even if you lose, aren't wasted because the enemy will be softened when entering the palace.
Last edit: 17 Mar 2017 14:30 by charlest.
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17 Mar 2017 14:31 #245318 by Black Barney
If we talk about Queen's Gambit enough, a Ken B. might appear in the wild!
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17 Mar 2017 14:32 #245319 by san il defanso

charlest wrote:

Michael Barnes wrote: What is this talk that the Luke vs. Vader part doesn't matter? IT'S LUKE VS. VADER. Of course it fucking matters!


Wanting the mechanisms to reinforce that isn't unreasonable.

C'mon, What if the reward was literally nothing? But it's LUKE VS. VADER! AWESOME! Expecting reasonable balance from a game, even a light one, should be a standard in 2016. If this was a Kickstarter game you'd throw it under the bus for lack of playtesting.

After my first play when I lost the Vader struggle and realized all of the actions I spent and got nothing out of, I started thinking about the math behind it. I didn't overthink, I just didn't shut my brain off when playing.

In Queen's Gambit, spending actions on the Jedi fight, even if you lose, aren't wasted because the enemy will be softened when entering the palace.


This does point out to me one thing that DOES annoy me about this game, which is that the different elements all feel pretty distinct from each other, not very well integrated into a whole. Queen's Gambit did that much better.
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17 Mar 2017 14:53 #245320 by SuperflyPete

charlest wrote:
Mixed Fleets are a thing, but generally you get less attacks because your clusters of individual types are smaller. An opponent amassing next to the space your spamming TIEs from? Welcome that like every time. Those ships will whither under 2-3 five dice attacks every single turn.

We did the math....Mathematically.... 20%percentage.


Oh, now I see your problem with it. You're not actually playing it, making pewpewpew sounds and whoooooorzzzsh sounds. Just so you know, you're doing this all wrong. Like, on an existential level.
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17 Mar 2017 15:05 #245323 by Space Ghost

charlest wrote:

Michael Barnes wrote: What is this talk that the Luke vs. Vader part doesn't matter? IT'S LUKE VS. VADER. Of course it fucking matters!


Wanting the mechanisms to reinforce that isn't unreasonable.

C'mon, What if the reward was literally nothing? But it's LUKE VS. VADER! AWESOME! Expecting reasonable balance from a game, even a light one, should be a standard in 2016. If this was a Kickstarter game you'd throw it under the bus for lack of playtesting.

After my first play when I lost the Vader struggle and realized all of the actions I spent and got nothing out of, I started thinking about the math behind it. I didn't overthink, I just didn't shut my brain off when playing.

In Queen's Gambit, spending actions on the Jedi fight, even if you lose, aren't wasted because the enemy will be softened when entering the palace.


Should it be balanced? 20% seems pretty good for the Rebel longshot odds.

In a broader discussion, should all games be balanced? I don't know.
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17 Mar 2017 15:20 - 17 Mar 2017 15:23 #245324 by charlest

Space Ghost wrote:

charlest wrote:

Michael Barnes wrote: What is this talk that the Luke vs. Vader part doesn't matter? IT'S LUKE VS. VADER. Of course it fucking matters!


Wanting the mechanisms to reinforce that isn't unreasonable.

C'mon, What if the reward was literally nothing? But it's LUKE VS. VADER! AWESOME! Expecting reasonable balance from a game, even a light one, should be a standard in 2016. If this was a Kickstarter game you'd throw it under the bus for lack of playtesting.

After my first play when I lost the Vader struggle and realized all of the actions I spent and got nothing out of, I started thinking about the math behind it. I didn't overthink, I just didn't shut my brain off when playing.

In Queen's Gambit, spending actions on the Jedi fight, even if you lose, aren't wasted because the enemy will be softened when entering the palace.


Should it be balanced? 20% seems pretty good for the Rebel longshot odds.

In a broader discussion, should all games be balanced? I don't know.


That's a good question. I think not, but what I would say is that it doesn't feel very satisfying to win when the only way that seems to happen against a particular strategy is for the dice to swing wildly your way and for luck to be your greatest strength. It is dramatic the first time or two that happens though.

Pete, I've played this around 25 times (about 10 of those solo trying different strategies to beat the SSD spam). Once someone figures out a dominant strategy and you start to realize the choices in the game are false (lightsaber duel) much of the fun drains away. The game becomes scripted and boring.

I don't get the lack of critical thought (or at least appreciation for it) from people who argue that the masses are too positive in accepting shit shoveled their way. I don't think this game's shit and I do think changing the rule so that TIEs spawned don't get to attack balances it out appropriately. Although the lightsaber duel is still not worth the investment and the Endor track is boring and not really worth it for the Empire either.

I didn't even mention that earlier, when you consider the Endor and Lightsaber tracks are not worth investing in for the Empire (something you may not agree with), the game loses the multi-vector battlefield aspect. That's a huge blow to the dynamic nature of the game.
Last edit: 17 Mar 2017 15:23 by charlest.
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17 Mar 2017 18:05 #245326 by Michael Barnes
Charlie, you are fired.
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17 Mar 2017 19:29 #245329 by Frohike
Damn, H2H just got real.

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18 Mar 2017 08:46 #245335 by wadenels
I really like Queens Gambit, but I can play an entire game of Risk SW in the time it takes to set up Queens Gambit. And original trilogy is better than episodes 1-3.
Thing is, if Queens Gambit was still in print I doubt anybody would be very excited about it. Inversely, if Risk SW went out of print people would come out of the woodwork to put it on a pedestal. People are weird that way.

There simply isn't more SW boardgame fun to be had for $30.
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18 Mar 2017 09:13 #245337 by southernman
I'm not affected by Groupthink (I have only a few AT opponents and don't hang out at BGG) but I did decide there was a definite higher-probability script strategy to follow in this game and then the fun just started to drain out of it. The game is a bit too simple for it to survive scripted play, if I still had a copy I'd likely play it now and then as a filler but it would never come out again as a main game.
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19 Mar 2017 01:49 #245354 by SuperflyPete
Well, I never played that fighters can attack upon launch because the rules don't mention it. So, maybe someone at Hasbro fucked up when doing the FAQs.

I also think the idea that the Empires stormtroopers aren't useful is kind of short-sighted too as one action (especially when 5's are the target number) can effectively force the Rebels to eat up 3-4 turns near the end of the game when it's most important. One action for the Empire in forcing 6's (or to a lesser extent 5's) on the Rebels can equal 12-16 shiny, new TIEs.

I still think that Luke redeeming Vader is an epic move, especially early to mid game when the space battles aren't as chaotic, after half of your reserves are launched.

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19 Mar 2017 01:51 #245356 by SuperflyPete
If I could get another copy of QG again though, I would. Totally worth 150$ to me to play that. People have spent way more than that on Kickstarter shit that wasn't near as entertaining.

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19 Mar 2017 02:04 #245357 by SuperflyPete

charlest wrote: Once someone figures out a dominant strategy and you start to realize the choices in the game are false (lightsaber duel) much of the fun drains away. The game becomes scripted and boring.

I don't get the lack of critical thought (or at least appreciation for it) from people who argue that the masses are too positive in accepting shit shoveled their way.


A couple of things. First, nobody ever EVER ever said Heroscape is boring, despite there being a single dominant strategy (or really, one of three). If a game is fun, it's fun. Even if it is sometimes stupid. Part of the fun is just playing the game and trying things.

Second, there's no lack of critical thought. Just because I think you're sounding like a fun murderer and totally wrong doesn't mean that I'm not critically thinking. "Fun first" means that you sometimes get shit like you're describing. You seem to expect that this should be a totally balanced masterpiece or something. It's Loopin Louie style fun. It's beautiful to look at. It has a tie fighter for a fucking board. Am I supposed to look at it and think "oh, that's an elegant design"? It's a fun ass mass market game meant to have fun and make pew pew sounds.

There are SO MANY classic games that rock to this very day that have dumb flaws and go/to strategies but people still love them. The question isn't whether it's "why aren't you overthinking this and seeing it as shit shoveled their way" it's "is it fun?". Nobody goes into Spartacus and says "this needs to be streamlined". They think "BOOTYANUS, YOUR GLADIATOR'S WINE HAS BEEN TAINTED WITH FECES!"

Sometimes you do yourself a service by not viewing games as something to be dissected and analyzed thoroughly. Sometimes you just stab a motherfucker in the neck and scream "Free candy, shitheel!!!"
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