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TOPIC: TI IV

TI IV 11 Aug 2017 14:06 #252371

I'm floored. I'm shocked they *didn't* reskin Chaos or Forbidden Stars or slap a Star Wars license on this. I'm shocked it's a coffin box. I'm shocked this is happening at all.

Is there really no room for it in 2017 as Barnes says? I don't know. I think a lot depends on how they streamline the game. Assuming there's more ways to score VPs and there's more refinement of the basic rules. $150 for a game of this size seems right. Cthulhu Wars is $200 MSRP, every big box kickstarter is at least $100, most inch up to $200, none of those games are on their 4th edition with 20 years of refinement.
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TI IV 11 Aug 2017 14:11 #252372

Honestly I'm in no matter what the changes are.

Mostly I just hope they tweak some of the bloated stuff and fix the techs the 2nd expansion added.
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TI IV 11 Aug 2017 14:36 #252373

Shellhead wrote:
A few weeks ago, I was looking at my game collection and pondering the dust on Twilight Imperium 3. There is still a regular weekly game at the FFG Event Center a few miles from my home, so I could theoretically play TI3 often. And yet I am not often in the mood for a long brainburning game of TI3, and none of my friends have ever shown any interest. So I was thinking about selling mine, especially given the high prices showing at BGG.

So I have mixed feelings about TI4. It looks really good, and maybe the rules will be a little more streamlined and efficient, though the 4-8 hour playtime suggests otherwise. My TI3 shelf toads are likely to remain shelf toads. I would like to at least try TI4, but I don't know if it will be embraced by the local players, and I don't want to throw down $150 for another shelf toad.

As long as that hardcore TI group plays at FFG, you'll always have a group to play with.

Its not my culpa, but apparently there is enough interest locally. But if I did want to play it, I wouldn't buy it. There will always be a copy at ffg to play and a large group to play it with at astonishing regular intervals for years.
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TI IV 11 Aug 2017 14:54 #252374

Michael Barnes wrote:
Nope. TI's time has come and gone. It is the Axis and Allies of the 21st century.

I liked TI3 quite a bit, but Barnes is probably right. TI4 is at a high price point and the length has always been a barrier for entry.

The attention span of most players has diminished to the point that even if someone were to set aside an entire day for gaming, they would more eagerly play 3 shorter games. I don't know that the crowd with a dust-covered TI3 on their shelves are eager to have a dust-covered TI4 shelved next to it.
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TI IV 11 Aug 2017 15:08 #252375

I've never played any TI game. With that said, these things are a huge turn-off:

- 4+ hours to play
- lots of downtime between turns
- expensive
- having to play against AP players
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TI IV 11 Aug 2017 15:46 #252378

Varys wrote:
I've never played any TI game. With that said, these things are a huge turn-off:

- 4+ hours to play
- lots of downtime between turns
- expensive
- having to play against AP players

Those are all valid concerns, except the downtime between turns isn't bad unless you do have AP players. Do not have AP players. Each player will be executing a strategy card every turn, and all the other players get to make use of the secondary ability on that strategy card immediately. Aside from that, there is a lot of information to consider while waiting for your turn. Lots of open info on the table, and then planning out your technology and ship building and movement.
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TI IV 11 Aug 2017 17:19 #252381

WVarys wrote:
I've never played any TI game. With that said, these things are a huge turn-off:

- 4+ hours to play
- lots of downtime between turns
- expensive
- having to play against AP players

AP players are your problem, not a game problem. They are fun murdering asholes that deserve to be taken behind the woodshed and beaten.
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TI IV 11 Aug 2017 18:20 #252385

I love TI3 and have played it probably 20 times over the last 5 years, and I still like playing it, so I'm curious about Fourth Edition. Though the link in the news article that says "Are you a Twilight Imperium veteran? Click here for information on key differences between the Third and Fourth Editions!" just goes to the general product page, with no information.

It seems like they've made the political phase more compulsory and frequent, which is good. And I like the idea of having ship upgrades directly on your player mat. Once I can see what the actual changes are and if they've streamlined some stuff, I might be interested in upgrading (but at wholesale price, definitely not retail).

I really hope the space tiles are the same size as the Third Edition ones so I can still use my custom-made board.
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TI IV 11 Aug 2017 18:39 #252386

Damn, I can't believe it's been 20 years...I bought the first edition at the Sword of the Phoenix around 1997, not long after it first came out. I had all of the expansions, including Armada...which was all of the plastic ships since the original game was CHITS. I remember it all came in the FLIMSIEST box known to man. We played it quite a bit, but man it was long. If I recall, it was sort of in that "I'm not sure we ever finished a game" territory.

Oddly, I never played 2nd.

3rd I ran very hot and cold with. When it came out, I had my store. I opened the giant ass box in the shop, and everybody was agog at it. I remember trying to run a six player learning game and it was just a nightmare. I also distinctly remember reading the rulebook on MARTA a couple of times. I thought it was OK, but it wasn't nearly as awesome as it seemed.

But then the expansion came out and I felt like it made a lot of things better. So I got really into it for a while, using those accelerated early turns and all that. But then I got bored with it again, because every game was like this boring, sloggy cold war thing. As is well documented, it became out who blinks first. And the person who blinks first usually gets whipped.

So back out of favor...but then I played a few times with the notorious Will Kenyon. His knowledge of the game is INSANE. Playing with him literally takes two hours off the playtime, regardless of what anyone else is doing. So then, my enjoyment was directly correlative with whether or not Will Kenyon was playing.

But then stuff like CITOW started coming out. And I pretty much lost interest in TI3. Now, I can not imagine reaching for it over Cthulhu Wars- a game I have already played more times than I think I have ever played TI3.

As for the new edition, I don't think the price is a problem. It should be about $150 versus today's comparatives. The shock is that FFG sold it for so long for under $100. That is quite a price increase, but if the expansion stuff is in it then it's reasonable. I also don't think the price will hurt it. It will sell just fine- regardless of my distaste for it, there are a lot of people for whom this is the ur-game and really a whole generation of gamers that have come along ten years after its watershed edition. Will this generation get with the excessive playtime and the now old fashioned gameplay? I dunno. They might! Or they might just play Eclipse instead. Or any number of Kickstarter 4x games that have come along and are coming. Maybe they'd rather play Blood Rage or Scythe.

The thing is, in 2004, TI3 was like a big ol' battleship cruising into the waters of the post-Princes of Florence Eurogames/BGG ascendant era. If you were into the "Ameritrash" thing at the time, it was epic. But it was also lightly hybridized, carrying on from Petersen's design in Game of Thrones and obviously per the design notes inspired by El Grande and Puerto Rico/Verrater. So it was kind of the happy medium in terms of mechanics...but it still had the crushing, inaccessible play time.

Who knows, maybe I'll get together with Will to try the new edition for old time's sake. But I couldn't possibly be less interested in getting it or writing about it.
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TI IV 11 Aug 2017 20:05 #252389

I'm stepping out of my cave for this, because this is BIG news.

I used to think Barnes was right on TI3. It's a kitchen sink design and that sort of thing had it's time. I've since settled that space 4X is very much "my thing." I'm fascinated by the genre and several games that do the same thing but take different approaches can peacefully co-exist on my self because I love it and it excites me. I'm the same with the genre on PC. I'll have several space 4X games on my hard drive at any given time and I'll bounce between them depending on the mood I'm in.

So several games have come along over the years that tackle this style of game. Lots of them have been really great. Star Trek Adcendancy and Exodus Proxima Centauri (a criminally underrated game with a criminally underrated expansion) are two games I really, really love. With those two games alone, I didn't think I needed TI3 anymore. I played it more than most people get to, and I still have a group with which all I have to do is say the three characters the game is abbreviated to and they'll be on their way over. So we played it not long after STA came out and all the reasons why I loved it all came flooding back instantly. There really isn't anything else like it. It's become a toolbox game, you really need to find what you like and what you don't like and taylor it to your liking to get the most out of it, but I did that work and it was worth it. The process isn't for everyone, don't get me wrong. Bottom line is that I go back and forth on "favorite game of all time," but TI3 has been a mainstay in my running long enough to give it some credence.

I've gone through the run of emotions today, from caution, to being against it, but after reading every piece of information on what they've done, I've settled on overwhelming excitement. The spirit of TI3 seems to be very much intact, and bitch about it all you want, the 4-8 hour play time is a part of that. It's a long game, it benefits from being a long game. That may not be your bag. You might say, "But games X, Y, and Z do the same thing in less time!" No. They don't. They might take place in space, they might have you building an empire and researching technologies, and they might be tighter, more focused designs but they do not offer the same variety, immersion, or sense of the vastness of space as TI does. The improvements in the UI, the reworking on the techs, player boards, trade agreements, politics, and Imperial card all look fantastic.

I'm _REALLY_ excited for this.
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Last Edit: 11 Aug 2017 20:39 by Josh Look.
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TI IV 11 Aug 2017 20:17 #252390

Totally agree about it being a singular experience. Also that the playtime is necessary to "buy" that kind of experience. We've talked about that before, the Civilization Effect. I just coined that term.
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TI IV 11 Aug 2017 20:27 #252391

People around these parts still continuously play TI:3 and Game of Thrones more than any game made by Fantasy Flight, past or present. I am not sure if I would say TI:3's time has passed.
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TI IV 11 Aug 2017 20:35 #252392

Chapel wrote:
People around these parts still continuously play TI:3 and Game of Thrones more than any game made by Fantasy Flight, past or present. I am not sure if I would say TI:3's time has passed.

The number of TRUE modern classics they have to their name is staggering, modern design junkies and cult of the new be damned.

I've also played with Will Kenyon, as well as a number of the other TI3 superfans. Those guys taught me the game and what the game is really all about, and playing with them is not like playing with anybody else, I can guarantee it.
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TI IV 11 Aug 2017 22:31 #252393

Hobby's getting expensive.
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TI IV 12 Aug 2017 00:47 #252395

I'm still waiting for Thunder's Edge II. :shrug:
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