Another Vlaada Chvátil game - Dungeonlords.

You all are seriously willing to write off Vlaada that easily?! Now I don't know if this game will be good or not but the guy that designed Space Alert and Galaxy Trucker deservs a look in my book. To that end I'm going to make my call on Dungeonlords after I see the final art and actually play it. Honestly, this is the same sort of douchebaggery that permeated the "Has FFG has lost their mojo?" thread.

-Will

Have played the prototype. I did rather like it.

- worker placement
- Indirect interaction only
+ Psycho crazy random factors
+ Kind of nails the theme

It feels like parts of Galaxy Trucker and Through the Ages. The structure of the game is like Galaxy Trucker: You build your dungeon, and then move to the event phase where a group of heroes attacks it.

The building phase is quite Euro, and not at all like the speed match of Galaxy Trucker. It does fit---Dungeon Keeper was a 1 player game. There is an indirect interaction thing where you are having to choose and prioritize the stuff you want to grab, and multiple people going to the same place (chosen blindly) will alter exactly what people get.

The actual event portion feels a lot like Galaxy Trucker. Here, you have a better idea how it is going to turn out. It is more focused and faster. There are some random spell and event cards that can add quite a bit of wackiness.

Probably best to think of it as Galaxy Trucker, but with building being slower and longer. Also deeper. It is a LOT easier to make mistakes.

This is the one aspect I really like about Vlaada's games. If you make a mistake, there isn't anything to coddle you.

Bulwyf wrote:

You all are seriously willing to write off Vlaada that easily?! Now I don't know if this game will be good or not but the guy that designed Space Alert and Galaxy Trucker deservs a look in my book. To that end I'm going to make my call on Dungeonlords after I see the final art and actually play it. Honestly, this is the same sort of douchebaggery that permeated the "Has FFG has lost their mojo?" thread.

-Will

All?

I'm just saying that it isn't anything like what I'm developing and I can happily continue working on it knowing that.

I never said FFG has lost any mojo in the other thread you mentioned either.

From first glances it really doesn't look like my cup o tea, but I'll leave the jury out until it after I have completed my effort and then tried his game. I really don't want any additional influence on mine from it. Though again, it looks far more cerebral and less tactical than what I am working toward as a goal.

I too am working on a small game with a similar theme - maybe dungeons is the new zombies.

I'm not into worker placement, but I too was imagining raiding heroes (controlled by opponents) and a somewhat euroish build-stuff feel. But I gotta say, the idea of an evil overlord coming home from his vacations sounds great.

Bulwyf wrote:

You all are seriously willing to write off Vlaada that easily?! Now I don't know if this game will be good or not but the guy that designed Space Alert and Galaxy Trucker deservs a look in my book. To that end I'm going to make my call on Dungeonlords after I see the final art and actually play it. Honestly, this is the same sort of douchebaggery that permeated the "Has FFG has lost their mojo?" thread.

-Will

I kind of like the prototype art. Looks a lot like Prophecy! Propechy is the only Vlaada game I've played though. But I would really, really, really like to play Through the Ages, Galaxy Trucker and Space Alert some time. Space Alert especially after having watched the new Star Trek movie for the second time.

mads b. wrote:

I too am working on a small game with a similar theme - maybe dungeons is the new zombies.

I'm not into worker placement, but I too was imagining raiding heroes (controlled by opponents) and a somewhat euroish build-stuff feel. But I gotta say, the idea of an evil overlord coming home from his vacations sounds great.

I'll tell you that heads will roll especially if he has it cut short due to the incompetence of his lackeys.

Dungeon crawls (and in this case reverse dungeon crawls) have been and always will be a popular theme, IMHO. As much as I like zombies, some of them are good friends of mine, fantasy themed games win out with me over them nearly every time. That's why the medieval and fantasy theme gets slapped on so many a euro to try to hide the blandness beneath - again IMO.

I have my eye on this one.
Prototype artwork looks SHIT - but hopefully the finished product will be better. I do think the theme does demand a level of "Humor", but hopefully its less cutsey-poo and more British style (like games workshop humor).

This certainly does look exactly like "Dungeon Keeper: the boardgame" - so much so I don't know why they don't go for the licence. Look at the top - why there is a chicken (food for your beasties) what looks to be a happiness meter, imp working and paying your troops - all that shit is straight from the game.
Worker placement MIGHT work with the theme depending on how it is done. It certainly makes sense for monsters - in the game beasties wandered out of portals then would join one of the dungeons based on which attracted it the most. In boardgame terms it makes sense for this to be a case of "If my opponent took a dragon I can no longer take him" as there was only one dragon there to begin with. If the other worker placement stuff is just materials then it makes sense too, since you are all competing for the kingdoms resources. If its "My imps can't clean the shit out of the toilet because my oponent chose that action" then that is simply crap.

This game will live or die on the 'dungeon attacked' phase. If that's fun the building section will be worth it. If that isn't then the game will suck. Already some of the raters are claiming the dungeon attack bit has combat that is too complex - hopefully it doesn't get watered down into something boring to appease the Eurowenie crowd.

Worker Placement generally implies that if you take it first, no one else can have it. Your description does not seem to imply WP. This is exactly what I said on the Stronghold thread where the phrase was used as well, in spite of it not appearing to be a correct application of it there either.

If getting there second means you can get what you want at a higher price, that ain't worker placement.

That's like saying roll-and-move generally implies that you don't get to choose the direction of your movement, and you have to use the exact number of your roll. That would mean that a game where your die roll only dictates your maximum movement allowance ain't roll-and-move.

I think it's ridiculous to assume that worker placement must always shut out whoever doesn't first place something in a spot... If that's fitting, thematically, then fine, but often it's not and in those cases, though it may add to the "game" aspect in terms of the conflict for the space, there's a disconnect with the theme that is a little off-putting. In Agricola for example, just because you plow a field, I can't? When we have different fields??

But worker placement can often be very thematic... I think it's the "placement" that makes it sound dull. But really, inasmuch as all games are abstracted to some extent, then it's more that the workers are taking actions and you're sending them out to do their actions. ("Worker action" sounds better, eh?) Is that really much different than sending a tank out to blow up some infantry in a wargame, or sending an investigator out to have an encounter at a location in Arkham Horror? I think it's partially that with the worker placement mechanic you don't see the movement aspect happening, but it's essentially the same effect.

A game I'm working on uses a worker placement type method, but instead of "workers" (plural), each of several worker tokens represents the same person, and the different placements of the tokens are the different actions that person chooses to take in a given day. The idea being, everyone has to plan ahead what they're going to do before they head out in the morning... The timing of the choices makes a difference as some places will be "locked out" once someone goes there (first come, first served) or provide a bonus to whoever got there first, and other places can accommodate several people, or even the same person returning there for a second time later in the day. It depends on the location. It's still more or less worker placement, but it seems to represent what's going on pretty well. If that's the case for this Vlaada game and for a game like Stronghold, then I'm all for it.

Grudunza wrote:

Is that really much different than sending a tank out to blow up some infantry in a wargame, or sending an investigator out to have an encounter at a location in Arkham Horror?

Yes. Very different. I think the generally accepted understanding of the term Worker Placement means it doesn't cover things like moving into the same space as someone else and kicking them off of it. I think it also doesn't mean there's room for everyone. Worker Placement sometimes offers multiple spaces to choose from at a particular location, but there is a defined limit and whoever gets there first keeps the space. That defined limit is the very nature of the mechanic, and what gives it its edginess. Without it, it's just moving pieces around.

If you want to expand the term to mean "You put a piece on the board somewhere or move a piece somewhere" it's completely meaningless and applies to virtually every game in existence. I think you'll discover pretty quickly that most people will disagree with that definition.

This is all just semantics. You can debate definitions all you like, but the heart of the matter is that, using the stricter, more formal concept of Worker Placement, my original statement still holds its own -- Worker Placement, in spite of Clockwirk's protests, remains the Brussels Sprouts of game mechanics.

Sag.