Let's Talk AH Fantasy Wargames

After 30 years, I finally got in plays of Titan this year and can't get enough. Tremendous game in every way. I missed out on AH games growing up as I was deep into the GW catalog.

So, I'm looking at other AH classic fantasy wargames from ages past specifically the following:

Dragon Pass

Elric

Wizard's Quest


I know a few fatties here like Wizard's Quest and I think Thrower is a fan of DP, but how do they compare against each other? What's the scoop? Any of these worth picking up?

Jeff White wrote: Dragon Pass

Dragon Pass is an extraordinary game, but it's very, *very* badly dated. I has more fantasy flavour - and quite unique flavour at that - than any other board game I know but that's basically the only selling point. It has a modular approach to rules and scenarios in which the first scenarios plays quickly and only use a few of the 30+ page rules, while later ones add more and more complexity, unit types and play time. At the top end, some of the units are absurd game breakers that completely destroy any semblance of strategy. The ones in the middle are worthwhile though.

I wrote a review:
fortressat.com/reviews-toc/1175-dragon-pass-monsters-and-angels

Jeff White wrote: Elric

All I know about this game is that Michael Moorcock hated it. That's good enough for me.

Jeff White wrote: Wizard's Quest

Wizard's Quest is a sort of fantasy risk variant. Some people on here like it, but I didn't much care for it. There's the genesis of a fun game there but I found it was ruined by the Orcs, a scripted AI player. The maintenance and overhead of this "feature" completely dominated the play time, to the point that after an hour of play, my friends & I allied to wipe them off the map. That took another hour, by which time we were pretty bored of the game.

There's a PC version of this kicking around somewhere if you want to try it out. Good luck finding a working download though:
www.hotud.org/component/content/article/37-strategy/23639

I like Wizard's Quest....and, I like the Orcs . The overhead isn't too bad. Roll a die and update Orc populations. when there are four orcs, they attack. Not rocket science.

Wizard's Quest is indeed a fun Risk-like. It has a good combat system, "neutral" units to keep everyone on their toes, some other good random events that can shake things up, and an actual victory condition instead of a count-up-the-VP endgame trigger. It does, however, have one "Blue Shell" card that can put the dick right to the leading player and tack another hour onto the game if it comes up late. I'd suggest taking it out.

Elric is interesting. The rulebook is crap, and the presentation is very dated, so it does take some effort to sort out which units belong to which players, and which nation they belong to. Other than that, it's a pretty lean and relatively smooth conquest game given its scope and scale, and there's enough chrome to make it feel like the Melnibone world (though I only read the first book, and didn't see what the big yank was, so YMMV). It even does the individual adventure/epic warfare blend similar to, say, Runewars. The board is groovy.

I've got a nice copy I'd be willing to part with.

I've got Wizard's Quest but haven't played it in 10 years. We used to have some epic battles with that game. It got played a lot and you can adjust your strategy to account for the Orcs. They key is to keep them down in your area and have them populate into your opponent.

We used to really love this game. The Dragon flying over. The Wizard. The game's a little dated now but it was great in its day. Probably should bust it out again just to see how well it holds up.

I also have my old Games Workshop DungeonQuest with painted minis from Heroes of Dungeonquest.

For a really old fantasy classic, there's Mystic Woods. Where you lay down flipped over cards and then explore by flipping them up and encountering their effects. I still have that one too.

I first played Wizard's Quest over thirty years ago, and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the concept of Orcs multiplying like rabbits and going nutso. The combat system was initially strange for me, (4 was the best you could hope for in most circumstances, regardless on the number of units. If you had a hero, you added one. A sorcerer, you added two but instead of killing the units you teleported them away.) I also liked it when you Petitioned the Wizard, he would sometimes get pissy and smack you down like a fractious child.

Some years ago, I pulled it out and played it again. It didn't age well. At all. Since the first time I played, I've played other fantasy wargames that did it better, or at the very least, shorter. When I did a purge of my games and RPG stuff for OLGS credit, this was one of the first to go.

The reality of it is that these games look awesome, you'll go out and buy them, learn the rules, and probably play them one time _if_ you can find willing accomplices and then they'll sit on your shelf for an intdeterminate amount of time before you sell them. None of these will be favorites, and none of these are in a class with older, timeless games like Dune, Cosmic, Talisman, or Dungeonquest.

You'd be much better served with Conquest of Nerath, Runewars,War of the Ring, Lineage II or just about any other more modern, more accessible fantasy game.

Michael Barnes, naysayer. I think Wizard's Quest compares favorably to Nerath....probably better in many regards. I think I will just write a review....maybe recurring reviews of "old shit"

I've played all three and they're all good games. Not convinced they've dated that much (no more than any other AH game of the period). But perhaps I'm remembering just the good,and not the bad points.

Dragon Pass - I think Matt exaggerates, I remember some of the units being very powerful, but wouldn't call them game breakers. (And I don't think it's dated far worse than the other two.) But what do I know? I actually prefer White Bear, Red Moon to Dragon Pass. Not just because of the Gene Day art, but for the whole mimeograph style.

Elric - The look reminds me of Rodney Matthews (I have the Chaosium edition).

Wizard's Quest - Great, medium light, fun game. F R E N Z Y ! ! ! !

Michael Barnes wrote: The reality of it is that these games look awesome, you'll go out and buy them, learn the rules, and probably play them one time _if_ you can find willing accomplices and then they'll sit on your shelf for an intdeterminate amount of time before you sell them. None of these will be favorites, and none of these are in a class with older, timeless games like Dune, Cosmic, Talisman, or Dungeonquest.

I realize that strident, myopic, opinionated statements are basically how you carved out your small bit of geeky internet fame, Michael, but it might shock you to note that your personal gaming situation does not map perfectly onto everyone else's. I moved halfway across the world less than 8 months ago, and I currently have gaming pals who would gladly agree to a Dragon Pass game anytime I'm of a mind. I'm quite certain I'm not the only one who can claim that. Sitting on an imagined throne proclaiming by fiat which gaming, and gaming experiences, are acceptable and useful isn't cool. It's not even ironically hipster-cool. It's just asshattery. I'm quite certain the talk the OP requested didn't include, 'The games you are interested in are dumb and pointless. Move on.'

You are all about short, ephemeral, modern gaming now. That's your new brand. We get it. But if your only input to a thread is, 'That is pointless gaming.', maybe it's best to skip that thread? I mean, I don't fuck up the 'Infiltration' threads by saying everyone who's enjoying that hastily-produced, flaccid, brainless piece of shit should eat the business end of a shotgun, do I?

Now, to the point: I've never tried Elric, but mean to. Dragon Pass is an excellent game, and I still play it a few times a year. The 'gotcha' moments that happen always seem to grow organically from gameplay, at least when you and your opponent have a basic knowledge of the game, and it's tactical enough that it rewards clever play and situational awareness. I'd encourage you to give it a go.

Fantasy and SF wargaming is an almost-abandoned portion of the boardgaming market. I continually wish for a comeback, but so far, nada.

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WTF Wolvie, when did I say that those games were dumb and pointless? I like two out of the three, but I'm being realistic not only knowing Jeff's tastes but also what usually happens when someone seeks these kinds of games out. I didn't say it was "pointless gaming", so unless you're trying to be a dick then don't misquote, mischaracterize, or misrepresent what I said.

Oh but wait, _you're_ pulling the hipster "I still play long, old games so I'm above it all" routine. I see now. Gee whiz, you must be a better gamer than me. I mean, I just like ephemeral games with no substance any more. Can somebody give this guy some of my gamer cred points?

You're right though, I shouldn't be in these internet forums providing opinions when asked for them. I take back everything I said. Jeff, these are wonderful amazing games that TRUE gamers love and play all the time so go blow your money on them.

What's the deal, I don't see where anything I said warranted such an asshole response. And Jeff thanked me for the post, so piss off with the bitchy attitude.

That suit you, Joel?

What are the 2 out of 3 that you like?

I've not played Elric, but I did like Dragon Pass (the one and likely only time I played it) and Wizard's Quest. I played Wizard's Quest several times in the 80s and early 90s, the last time I tried it was five or six years ago and I didn't think it held up very well.

More to Jeff's concern, I just don't think that these games are going to give him what he's looking for. Even though I'm not a huge Titan fan, it's the kind of design that has weathered time even though it runs long and I think there's more to do with figuring out muster routes than there is to do with any kind of setting or theme. Jeff is doing that thing we ALL do when you start asking "what else is there?"

And from my experience with older games like this, it's almost always a disappointment if you've not already played these games. You're not going to happen on a revelation that- holy shit! Elric is like the best game ever! And then your group plays nothing but it for a year. I guess that could happen, but I've seen folks over and over again seek out games like this and I've seen these kinds of games wind up sitting un played over and over again.

Which isn't to say that they're "pointless" at all. Jeff needs to do his due dilligence and figure out if he likes them for himself. Dragon Pass may wind up being his favorite game of all time. But there again, he's going to need other folks that also want to invest in it. That's why I suggested some of the more recent fantasy wargames, because those are games that are MUCH easier to get folks on board for.

Eh, I'm with Barnes on this one, mostly.

I've you've got a group that's down to play Dragon Pass whenever, good for you. Most of us are not going to be in that same boat. I wish to fuck it were otherwise, but as a guy who genuinely likes "retro" board games, I've just got to deal with the fact that some old titles can hack it with other players these days, and some can't. These ones probably can't.

That's not to say the games he suggests instead are any better, really. WotR tends to outstay its welcome, and it's quite scripted. Lineage II isn't at all the same kind of game. CoN is anti-climactic, and doesn't have even the slightest whiff of originality in it. Runewars has that awful deck of cards that's used for every random determinant in the game, which just plain sucks. Then again, they're all prettier than Elric and WQ, they have faster endgame triggers, and they don't have rules written in that turgid old AH legalese which makes everything sound way more fucking complicated than it is.

If you can get your group to look passed the ugly purple chits and the overly long playtimes, these games are worth playing. I'd say moreso than something like Nerath, as they have some unique gameplay elements and a weird vibe you just won't get playing more modern games that are designed specifically to play "just like X, but shorter."

But, good luck getting your group on board. If you can great. Otherwise, you're wasting your money. And no, none of 'em are any Titan.