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Memoir '44: to buy or not to buy?

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09 Nov 2014 07:54 #190285 by wadenels
I like M44 for its simplicity. I've always felt that the C&C system was just as much about hand management as tactics, and a bunch of extra rules (BattleLore, Ancients) never felt to me like it gave the game any greater tactical depth. It's completely possible that I haven't played the C&C games enough to experience all the great tactical depth that I keep hearing about, but in the meantime I'll take M44 over the other C&C games.

You don't need to buy a bunch of expansions either. There's quite a bit of game in the base box, and if you really dig it you can pick and choose the expansions that add stuff that seems interesting. I only have the base game with Eastern Front and the Winter/Desert Map pack, and there are many hours of game play there.

Matt, what's so bad about the individual scenarios?
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09 Nov 2014 10:34 #190294 by Matt Thrower

wadenels wrote: Matt, what's so bad about the individual scenarios?


Essentially, the base game ones are all too short/small. In virtually every case, they play out as tit for tat unit exchange, and it comes down to whoever gets lucky with the card or dice to grab the last flag. There's no time or space to maneuver, or gain an edge. It's fun enough for the first few plays, but gets boring really quickly.

The longer Eastern Front scenarios with more stars are a huge improvement. I've had a great time with those. And playing linked scenarios into a campaign is even better. When you've got more stars and more troops on the board I totally get what you're saying about its strength being its simplicity. But, as I said, it needs expansions to shine. Generally, the more the better - I'd say Eastern Front, Terrain Pack, Air Pack, Campaign Book 1 and Winter Board.

I guess you could get a flavour with that free D-Day Campaign. I'd forgotten about that - could be worth a try for the OP.

It's my second most-played game after Twilight Struggle (~60 games) so it's possibly just over-familiarity. But I just won't play those base game scenarios any more. And I don't remember thinking any of them were that good in the first place.
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09 Nov 2014 12:54 - 09 Nov 2014 12:56 #190301 by Sagrilarus

MattDP wrote: There's no time or space to maneuver, or gain an edge. It's fun enough for the first few plays, but gets boring really quickly.


My son and I have revamped the victory conditions in Ancients, making them more based on a traditional ancient outcome of rolling up a flank or chasing enough units off the field of battle. As far as I'm concerned the entire C&C line suffers from kill-five-first syndrome which has little if any connection to the battles it purports to simulate. You win battles in real life by taking and holding ground. Last time we played my boy said, "I hope you have steak in your baggage train, because I'm eating your dinner tonight." He had my entire left rolled back behind my center, and that's what a win looks like. Little fucker raked the entire front lawn the next day.

S.
Last edit: 09 Nov 2014 12:56 by Sagrilarus.
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09 Nov 2014 15:23 #190308 by Matt Thrower

Sagrilarus wrote: As far as I'm concerned the entire C&C line suffers from kill-five-first syndrome which has little if any connection to the battles it purports to simulate. You win battles in real life by taking and holding ground.


Indeed. And I forgot to mention that the scenario designers in M44 seemed to learn this iteratively as expansions came out. Many of the expansion scenarios give you bonus stars for taking and holding terrain features. And in the longer ones, those become enormously important and usually swing the game. The result is a simplistic but passable feature of real battles.

It's a far bigger issue in M44 than Ancients IMO. In the latter, you can kind of imagine how gradual losses would eventually lead to a morale collapse and a rout, as was the case in many historical battles. By the time of WW2, better training and command structure meant that just wasn't the case any more.

I haven't played enough CC:N to know if it's an issue there. Historically it ought to fall somewhere in between the two.
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09 Nov 2014 16:42 #190311 by DukeofChutney
CC:N does have the kill 5 then home for wine and cheese problem, however some of the scenarios in the base game have objective hexes and the expansions up this quite a bit. So it becomes less about losses and more about map control.

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09 Nov 2014 18:43 #190316 by Applejack
Matt, what exansions do you recommend? Which ones are essential?

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10 Nov 2014 10:31 #190340 by Msample
For me I can't get over the apparently non existent scaling. There are scenarios that seem tactical level, then I see a giant Overlord set up that covers the entire Normandy peninsula using the same system ? Can't wrap my head around that.

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10 Nov 2014 11:04 #190345 by Sagrilarus

MattDP wrote: It's a far bigger issue in M44 than Ancients IMO. In the latter, you can kind of imagine how gradual losses would eventually lead to a morale collapse and a rout, as was the case in many historical battles. By the time of WW2, better training and command structure meant that just wasn't the case any more.


Yeah, but the result is that you find yourself rooting for retreats, as the other guy doesn't get credit for retreats in a kill-five-first win scenario. In ancient battles most of the deaths occurred after one of the armies fled the field, chased down during their retreat. A couple of units fleeing on one side of the field before first contact could be the end of it all in spite of nearly zero losses. (Yeah, I know, you can look at elimination as an indication of fleeing, but that still doesn't fix the fact that retreating is bad but actually helps the guy doing it in the current rules.)

That's not the case in Memoir '44 and battle damage was indeed more important. But I would like to have seen more scenarios where taking a bridge or holding out for six turns was the victory condition, because that was the nature of the war, particularly on the Western Front. Eastern Front was a slugfest, but that part of the war was largely over prior to Normandy.

I would love to see a scenario for the base set where paratroopers come down on one corner of the board and have to grab a bridge and hold it through a particular turn. Wouldn't be surprised if there aren't historical precedents for that sort of thing, and it would add a lot of flavor to the game.

S.
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10 Nov 2014 17:16 #190398 by bomber

Sagrilarus wrote:
I would love to see a scenario for the base set where paratroopers come down on one corner of the board and have to grab a bridge and hold it through a particular turn. Wouldn't be surprised if there aren't historical precedents for that sort of thing, and it would add a lot of flavor to the game.

S.


and trivially easy to make up yourself, using the physically dropped in troopers (as used in some official scenarios), upside down counters perhaps for decoy markers (on both sides), reveal when used or targeted, and some kind of dice roll per turn for reinforcements from the defenders, or automatic replenishment after unit losses. VP "total" for attacking side as number of turns the bridge or building is held. The beauty of the simplicity of the system is that its very clearly a "do it yourself toolbox" for "plastic soldiers".

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11 Nov 2014 06:32 #190425 by Matt Thrower

Applejack wrote: Matt, what exansions do you recommend? Which ones are essential?


Well, it's complicated.

The best single expansion is Eastern Front, without a doubt. But getting that leads you down the route to Campaign book 1, which is out of print and goes for silly money. If you do go that route, pick up the terrain pack and then the book. The winter board and air pack are nice to have, but not necessary.

The Pacific expansion is a step up from the base game, but it's not as good as Eastern Front. However, it does lead you toward Campaign Book 2, which is still available. I've never played it, however, so I can't comment.

A third possible route is breakout games. These use a much bigger board and so take a lot longer to play, although the game is arguably a bit deeper as a result. I wouldn't recommend this though, as I think the speed of the game is part of its charm.
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11 Nov 2014 08:57 #190431 by wadenels
Days of Wonder has PDFs of the Campaign Books for sale on their website; $15 for Vol 1 and $30 for Vol 2.

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11 Nov 2014 13:53 #190467 by bomber

wadenels wrote: Days of Wonder has PDFs of the Campaign Books for sale on their website; $15 for Vol 1 and $30 for Vol 2.


I think Vol 2 is still for the book. If you find a link to a PDF please let us know!

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11 Nov 2014 14:31 #190471 by Matt Thrower

wadenels wrote: Days of Wonder has PDFs of the Campaign Books for sale on their website; $15 for Vol 1 and $30 for Vol 2.


Ah, I didn't know that. In which case, totally pick up Eastern Front.

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12 Nov 2014 08:43 #190506 by Cranberries
Did they ever come out with a master rule book that incorporated all the errata?

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12 Nov 2014 10:11 #190517 by bomber
No, you would think they would have by now, it would be great if they tided it up a bit, got all the rules on single sheets, released a nice looking binder perhaps and got all the scenarios as PoD or released to buy as packs of binder pages. Something like Universal Heads ref sheets are probably the best bet right now
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