ASL -- Just begging for a Cease & Desist

I'm learning Advanced Squad leader and the Defender of London is being very patient with me as I misinterpret the rules over and over again. This evening while trying to figure out Line of Sight from the ASL Starter Kit #1 rule set I stumbled across this gem --

"The TEM for woods is +1."

Sounds like something I might want to know, so I look up TEM in the Definition of terms table, which is half acronyms with their spelled out name after them, half spelled out names with their acronym after them. I'm lucky with TEM, the acronym is first followed by the words spelled out. It reads,

"Terrain Effects Modifier; an IFT DRM caused by terrain."

Aha! Acronym references within the acronym definitions. I should count my blessing IFT DRM isn't abbreviated to ID, but I need to look up IFT and DRM in order to figure out what we're talking about. IFT first --

"Infantry Fire Table"

Short and sweet. I have one of those on a piece of cardboard. DRM --

"drm/DRM: Die roll (or Dice roll) modifier; a mathematical adjustment either positive or negative to the original die roll or dice roll."

Best guess is upper-case is for two dice, lower case for one. Not sure why a "+1" is different for the two, but there you go. So three quick lookups (along with the interruption of mental flow that goes along with cross-referencing across three pages beyond the one I was reading on) reveals that woods add a +1 to attack rolls. Apparently "+1 to attack rolls" wasn't sufficiently clear.

This pig is only twelve pages, and virtually a full page is dedicated to defining terms and acronyms. "Firegroup" is reduced to FG because presumably it saves space, while "Good Order" is left as "Good Order". "Inherent Terrain" doesn't get an acronym, "die roll" does.

There's a part of me that wants to retype the whole damn thing, replacing the acronyms with their expanded form and adding simple explanations, and then put it out on the torrent sites. New users could learn from the expanded version (which might be shorter, as an entire page of definitions could be removed) and they could search the doc for strings when they need to. If I started now I could have it done by 2am or so, including images cut in in a rough fashion.

Granted, I'd be busting my ass to get it done. I'd have a CX on me until my next MPh but it would be FWI. Every Inexperienced SMC trying to learn ASLSK1 could avoid DM or at least get a DRM on their MC. I'd be a goddamned hero! MMP would C&D my ass for it, but who cares? It would be worth it.

As best I can tell they never had a new person read this rule book before publishing it.

The thing that astounds me is that this is the revised version! What the hell did the original read like?

S.

Acronyms have been around since the original Squad Leader and became standard with ASL.

Msample wrote: Acronyms have been around since the original Squad Leader and became standard with ASL.

Oh yeah. This has 1975 MIL-COM-CINC-PAC written all over it. I have no doubt that an attempt to change any part of it is met by the hue and cry of thousands of players that would see it as a personal insult to the game.

In text designed to impart knowledge you write things out. Acronyms make more sense for seasoned players. In fact, the best thing they could have done would be to write out the full phrase each time, with the acronym following, so that both fundamental game concepts and acronyms could seat with new players simultaneously. Starter kits should be for starting.

S.

OK, I'm going to have to chip in here.

ASL acronyms are used to shorten the rulebook which is already a massive volume because it covers vehicles, night actions, jungle warfare, amphib assaults, air drops etc

For non ASLers it is difficult to visualise why the rules are not more verbose, for ASLers it is to reduce quantity and increase quality. ASL acronyms are now so internalised that the difference between dr and DR is well understood (and in the rulebook). I always think of it as trying to explain high level Physics to someone without maths. It makes the explanations ten times longer and it is actually less clear subject to personal interpretations and so on.

No one is denying that ASL has a steep learning curve and the acronyms and constantly looking shit up is a part of that until the rules are internalised enough for you to start planning proper tactical strategies.

The idea is partially to teach new players but also to segue with the full rule book so, when the time is right, that becomes more understandable. When I learned ASL, sonny boy, I used the full rule book and that was really difficult. You kids have no idea how hard it was when we used horses instead of cars and made our own electricity in the shed.

Direct quote from p3 glossary:

dr: die roll, a roll of just one die
DR: Dice Roll, a roll of two dice

No guessing required

Advice, photocopy the glossary on p3

drm is a +/- adjustment added to one die thrown

DRM is +/- adjustment added to two dice thrown

These acronyms actually minimise the amount of rules lawyering occurring in game because they are very specific.

OK, now Sag, why are you posting on here, raging about how difficult ASL is to learn, and not doing your homework, as required, which is to learn the friggin' acronyms and not waste time posting about how difficult it is to learn the friggin' acronyms? If my students spent as much time doing the work instead of complaining how hard the work is, my job would be a lot easier...

LSYD&UO

GTFO

SISMWFWTDUSWSW

Sitting in shopping mall waiting for wife to do unnecessary shopping with shitty wifi

Sagrilarus wrote:

Msample wrote: Acronyms have been around since the original Squad Leader and became standard with ASL.

Oh yeah. This has 1975 MIL-COM-CINC-PAC written all over it. I have no doubt that an attempt to change any part of it is met by the hue and cry of thousands of players that would see it as a personal insult to the game.

In text designed to impart knowledge you write things out. Acronyms make more sense for seasoned players. In fact, the best thing they could have done would be to write out the full phrase each time, with the acronym following, so that both fundamental game concepts and acronyms could seat with new players simultaneously. Starter kits should be for starting.

S.

I live in the ridiculous bubble world in which nonsense like "MARCORSYSCOM" and "COMSUBLANT" and sentences along the lines of "We built the MDD for the SPAWAR NOC SCAMPI A using the MOD4 IMS and WBS in the hopes of achieving CMMI ML4" crop up pretty much every day. That said, I'm with Sag on this one. While I understand Andy's point, it really hammers home that the ASLRB mothership is far more a reference manual than a game rule book. Ok, but then to find the same kind of language in the Starter Kits was aggravating as hell as it's an impediment to beginners resulting more from laziness than anything else. It's one of my few real gripes when I picked up the ASLSKs--it just felt like it was still working from an assumption that an ASL vet will be teaching the game, so the rules didn't have to be all that noob-friendly.

Which is probably true more often than not, as I think about it. But it's still a pain in the ass....

Im surprised anyone here struggled with DRM which I've seen in loads of other games too, even RPGs. TEM was pretty obvious too, but I'll take the middle ground and wonder why no one in all these years has already done what Sag mentioned and done some kind of reimagined "general" rulebook, in a more verbose and illustrated style. Is there a bit of reverse nerd clique going on with wargamers in general, and more so with "complicated" ones, it reminds me of the dunderheads that refuse to entertain changing the format of consimworld forums. Whereas there is no way anyone can argue to me that the design there was ever done by someone who does not live in a room on his own smearing shit on the walls and picking flies out of it to eat. Cos its FUCKING MENTAL and STOOOPID. But I think the "in crowd" there kind of like it. BGG is similar, every time some tail wagging noob comes in and says isnt it time the site was revamped and made a bit more modern you get the same buttplug clenching fucktards jumping in (you know who they are, its always the same cunts) who will Mister Spock the poor poster into submission. Of course, anyone who has managed to extricate their head out of their shithole for a few minutes a day (we all try!) can see that the design and layout and presentation of that site is shite, but serves nicely the mouth breathing we think we're smarter than everyone else nerd crowd, who in any other walk of life would be chuckled at and pelted with eggs.

I certainly agree ASLRB is not easy for newbies and I'm not saying it could not be rephrased for beginners.

I think one of the best solutions for this conundrum is an e version of the rulebook and this is being pushed hard with MMP and Hasbro (because MMP doesn't own the rights). An e rulebook with easy html references for look up.

It's kind of easy to simply say 'rewrite this and make it noob friendly' but someone is going to have to be paid to do it and make sure that the rules are lock solid in step with the original RB and persuade the rights holders that this is the way to go. The rulebook itself is HUGE and difficult to navigate (which is my main issue). Making it more verbose would maybe double the size. It already has tons of examples in it (in case you thought it was a mere reference manual). It's already $70, higher than that will shut out new business, for sure.

Many ASLers play nothing other than ASL. As Barnes once said, it is a lifestyle choice for many and definitely not a casual game system. Hard core tactical fans basically. There is also an element of 'how hard can it be?' guys but they soon realise their mistake.

Given all that, it is still a very good system and I am still very happy to teach it, even though I'm really only teaching the basics because ASLSK is a subset of the full ASLRB.

EDIT: Also, if you guys keep bullying me, I'm going to go over to the GameSquad Forum and get the diehard ASLers to come over and beat you all up by spamming the forums with ASL related nerd logic. You think BGG is bad? You 'aint seen nothing yet. Especially you, Lee.

A guy on BGG is revising the Squad Leader rules. Here is how he described it in a PM:

Me: Hi, I saw you mention a squad leader rules project in a discussion on BGG and was wondering if you had heard of the Ian Mcdowell version of this.


Guy:I did review it and found it lacking in what I'm wanting in the form of an easy but complete directions. The format that has guided me is an article in The General (Vol. 20-4, Nov-Dec 1983), "Getting It All Together - Learning The Squad Leader System", by Bob Medrow. The downside is a new numbering system that he proposed of which I've followed suit with some modifications.

Additionally, all rules are briefly titled to describe their contents. They are also color coded to distinguish the superior rule to the subordinate rules which are indented to as much as six levels with each level having its unique color. This greatly aids in a quick search. Each sentence within a rule is listed in a bullet fashion allowing for a quick scan to a relevant reading. Following each rule is a reference to the original source rule. Those rules which have been replaced in whole or in part are listed in their entirety in a table prior to the updating rule so that there will be an easy way to see the differences and the authorizing change. I've included the Q&As from the Squad Leader Academy right after the relevant rules. Preceding the bulkier chapters such as AFV combat or artillery is a smaller font section in an indented outline form hyperlinked to the relevant rule for quick navigation. Hyperlinking is used extensively from the contents sections, rules referenced within a rule, the index, and in an appendix a table showing the relationship of the original rule number to the modified number.

There are a number of appendixes including armor and ordnance listings. i'm contemplating on creating some logic flow graphs for artillery and some other more complicated procedures.

I'm presently working on the index using as a guide Jon Mishcon's "Comprehensive Index - Squad Leader through G.I." Surprisingly, this the most labor intensive aspect of this project.

Also, how does one "cease and desist" a torrent? It's not like there aren't full torrents of ASL product already.

This is Squad Leader which is not an easy version of ASL, it's an entirely different system which was trashed because it was internally inconsistent (rules wise) and the rules could not be made to work. Turned out to be broken.

Hence, the development of ASL as a response to start from scratch with an internally consistent set of rules. Squad Leader rules are maybe 3% of the rules load of ASL but broken once you get to vehicles.

ThirstyMan wrote: This is Squad Leader which is not an easy version of ASL, it's an entirely different system which was trashed because it was internally inconsistent (rules wise) and the rules could not be made to work. Turned out to be broken.

Hence, the development of ASL as a response to start from scratch with an internally consistent set of rules. Squad Leader rules are maybe 3% of the rules load of ASL but broken once you get to vehicles.

Yeah, I realize there is a schism between these two religions, but I wanted to point out that a)someone might be doing this already, b) this guy is hardcore even though it is squad leader, and the project might eat up your life, and c) I forgot what C. is.

Sagrilarus wrote: In text designed to impart knowledge you write things out. Acronyms make more sense for seasoned players. In fact, the best thing they could have done would be to write out the full phrase each time, with the acronym following, so that both fundamental game concepts and acronyms could seat with new players simultaneously. Starter kits should be for starting.

S.

ThirstyMan wrote: IThe rulebook itself is HUGE and difficult to navigate (which is my main issue). Making it more verbose would maybe double the size. It already has tons of examples in it (in case you thought it was a mere reference manual).

Let's meet halfway: is it too hard to spell out each abbreviation/acronym the FIRST TIME it's used in a text? It wouldn't add to length and would ease reading tremendously. Seems like common sense. Veteran gamers will obviously recognize the abbreviation at a glance.

How about a glossary, which it already has.

@Craniac: It isn't a religious schism between the two games. It's very simple, SL is OOP and not supported anymore while ASL is in print and is supported, not just by MMP, but by many 3rd party companies. ASL was developed because of inconsistencies in the rule set of SL and that was because SL was developed piecemeal (over several modules) instead of in one cohesive whole. ASL was developed to correct that problem.

SL is still used (particularly for infantry only actions) and has a showing at WBC but is not the same game. Funnily enough, most players I know of understand all this and prefer to use the SL earlier system. It is less extensive than ASL but per se easier to follow. Not quite the same as a doctrinal difference.

I'm fairly impressed that I still remember those TLA's being I haven't played ASL since 1999. I should pick it up again one day.