The Thirty Years War

Are there any Thirty Years War games NOT made by GMT(and no, Wallenstein doesn't count)? Preferably from this decade, with a production value somewhere above "hand-drawn by Taiwanese children who now experience nightmares whenever they see an 'X' inside a rectangle".

There is "Revolution - The Dutch Revolt", which covers the part of it that happened in the Netherlands. Then there is the "30 Years War Quad" game, a reprint of the original SPI edition by Decision Games. As the name suggests those are 4 battles using the same system.

Decision Games have been criticized quite often for their reprints, because they tend to 'improve' things to the worse. Although I don't know anything about the Quad game, I own the "To the Green Field Beyond" reprint edition, which is just fine and has good components.

All other "accectable" games about this topic are from GMT.

I'm actually most interested in the CDG "The Thirty Years War" by GMT. At first glance, it seems like a good followup to We The People and Hannibal, but since it's out of print I don't know about availability. The reviews I've seen on the game suggest it could have used some tweaking to the rules, but in general was a decent game.

--Mike L.

That's out of print!?! Son of a bitch, my copy just got damaged by water. Like a week ago. It's not ruined, but now there are small, understated (but very noticeable when you are agonizing over them) pink splotches on a few parts of the board and about 10-15 of the chits. That sucks. I bought a bunch of boardgames between 2005 and 2006 (thanks almost entirely to Mike Barnes) and now a large percentage of those seem to be out of print. At the very least, Princes of the Renaissance is oop, and I am starting to think anything not made by FFG is at risk.

Anyway, I have the GMT game, Europe in Agony, and my biggest complaint is that it is only two player, and I prefer a minimum of four players in a given board-game, ideally with the option to go up to six. The card-driven system is a bit... Lacking, but if you are enthusiastic about the setting, the thrill of wiping out Tilly's Bavarian hordes with Mansfeld outside Heidelburg, or crushing John-George of Saxony in a pincer-movement between Christian of Brunswick and Christian IV of Denmark, is enough to make any flaws like somewhat old-fashioned rules, lack of plastic toy soldiers and the off-ness of the card-system inconsequential.

I have Revolution also, I've been really interested in the subject, and looking for an Eagle Games-style TYW boardgame. I'v come to the realization it doesn't exist, but damn it'd be cool.

Hey, you're a game designer now...just do like the Eurogame designers do and apply a Thirty Years War theme to your SHIT FARMER.

Michael Barnes wrote:

Hey, you're a game designer now...just do like the Eurogame designers do and apply a Thirty Years War theme to your SHIT FARMER.

Wouldn't that just be Hamburgum? I've actually got an extensive TYW idea I've been working on, but it is stalled because 1/72 scale TYW guys are almost as difficult to find as 1/72 scale pirates.

mtlawson wrote:

I'm actually most interested in the CDG "The Thirty Years War" by GMT. At first glance, it seems like a good followup to We The People and Hannibal, but since it's out of print I don't know about availability. The reviews I've seen on the game suggest it could have used some tweaking to the rules, but in general was a decent game.

--Mike L.

It took the combat system of PoG, where units had Combat, Loss and Movement factors, and incorporated it into a leader activation game, a la Hannibal and We the People. The production values in the counters, cards and map are very good. The two rules problems I had with it were, as I recall, the stacking limits were too high and leaders could pick up units as they moved, but were limited to moving the lowest movement factor of any unit in the stack. This was a straight translation from Wilderness War I believe, which does not allow picking up units. Basically a leader could move 5 spaces, pick up a 4 MF unit and move 4 more spaces. I think this was all cleaned up in living rules, and if you like the leader activation cdgs you will probably like this one.

Thanks for the info, Ted. I guess I ought to start sending GMT e-mails about when they're going to put that in reprint.

--Mike L.

mtlawson wrote:

Thanks for the info, Ted. I guess I ought to start sending GMT e-mails about when they're going to put that in reprint.

--Mike L.

I wouldn't count on it. 30YW is the best CDG, but really the most difficult for people to just jump right into. It has generally been poorly received, and was sitting rotting in GMT warehouse until they dropped the price and it finally got eaten up. I picked up a copy 3 years ago for about $25 on ebay, mostly unpunched. Not a good sign of demand, but don't let that fool you, the game is great.

The main problem being, that warfare in the 17th century, is nothing like that of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. The Thirty Years war is also a bit of a misnomer, as it is hard to call it one war at all and not a series of wars, rebellions and uprisings. GMT's Thirty Years War is really dependent on politics, and without any definite fronts or alliances, the game can be confusing to those unfamiliar with the conflict. It isn't quite so simple as "East vs. West" or "North vs. South", with a lot of political consequences and generally confusing interplay between powers. The CDG is a great way of breaking the conflict down into a more manageable game, and is fantastic.

The game also apparently shipped with an awful rulebook which never helps. The living rulebook is still poorly organized and confusing, but does work. I've probably played 7-8 games, with 3-4 to a conclusion and am always ready for more. I'm going to start a cyberboard match as soon as I get off of my lazy ass.

In regards to making a simpler more "trashy" game for the time period, I would say to not bother. There is just simply too much going on in the period without doing the period a disservice. I think 30YW is about as simple as you can go with the war, and would really like to see a more in depth coverage of the war. We'll see about Ben Hull's Great Campaigns of the Thirty Years War, if it ever gets off the P500.

For a tactic feel, go for the Ben Hull's Musket and Pike series. Battles can be long, but it really is a straightforward and reasonable system, and it feels great to see the Imperial armies flanks cave to the onslaught of the Swedish army!

PS: I'm probably going to write my master's thesis on the Thirty Years War, or at least Scandinavian involvement in it. It is fucking fascinating.

PseudoIntellectual wrote:

I've actually got an extensive TYW idea I've been working on, but it is stalled because 1/72 scale TYW guys are almost as difficult to find as 1/72 scale pirates.

Try this: www.plasticsoldierreview.com/PeriodThirtyYearsWar.html

TYW is a fascinating war. Ugly war. Still wonder sometimes how even managed to keep it going despite everybody (except the Dutch) going broke all the time, having their territories plundered, population decimated. What the fuck were those people thinking.

So Orlok, tell me something more about your PhD. My room mate colleague in university did his PhD on Dutch arms manufacture in that period and I wrote an article on the Admiralty of Rotterdam in the 1620s & 1630s. What are you looking at?

The most amazing thing about TYW was that the Turks were unable to break through the Balkans and take advantage of the wholesale depopulation in central Europe. Yes, I know that the Turks had nothing to do with the TYW, but the Ottoman Empire was still at the height of it's power at the time.

--Mike L.

Count Orlok wrote:

I wouldn't count on it. 30YW is the best CDG, but really the most difficult for people to just jump right into. It has generally been poorly received, and was sitting rotting in GMT warehouse until they dropped the price and it finally got eaten up. I picked up a copy 3 years ago for about $25 on ebay, mostly unpunched. Not a good sign of demand, but don't let that fool you, the game is great.

...

The game also apparently shipped with an awful rulebook which never helps. The living rulebook is still poorly organized and confusing, but does work. I've probably played 7-8 games, with 3-4 to a conclusion and am always ready for more. I'm going to start a cyberboard match as soon as I get off of my lazy ass.

Therefore, a more accessable CDG on the TYW means a totally revamped treatment. Maybe a The Napoleonic Wars style treatment to the game would work.

--Mike L.

[/quote]

Therefore, a more accessable CDG on the TYW means a totally revamped treatment. Maybe a The Napoleonic Wars style treatment to the game would work.

--Mike L.[/quote]

Maybe it would, but how much fun would a TYW game really be without the individual personalities, the assassinations, the peasant revolts and the wholesale pillage and destruction of the German countryside? It may work, but I think that the TYW CDG stripped it down to about as playable it can get without losing its spirit.