Please tell me what to think about these euros

(Originally, I wanted to post a similar thread on TOS. However, having had some miserable experience with their Recommendations forum in the past, I thought I might as well stop lurking and introduce myself here. So, uh, hello. I really like you guys.)

When it comes to Euros that I don't own, there are few of them that stay firmly on my wishlist (El Grande, Shogun/Wallenstein, La Citta, Rivals for Catan, Battle Line, Roma/Arena and Survive come to mind), hundreds and hundreds of them that I have no intention of ever trying (you know the kind…) and then there are some titles that managed to catch my attention, but I still can't make up my mind about them despite reading some comments and reviews.
This thread is about the last category – I'll list all those games and then I'd like to ask you to help me sort through them. I would be most grateful even for short answers like "SEARCH: x, DESTROY: y, z".
Many thanks!

MY EURO-EXPERIENCES SO FAR

• I like (and so does my group): Tigris & Euphrates, Settlers of Catan (preferably with Cities & Knights), Glory to Rome and Small World. Genoa lies on the shelf still unplayed; Carcassonne was OK only for some time.
• I didn't like and I have sold: Stone Age (our biggest gaming disappointment so far) and Thunderstone (too much shuffling and arithmetic for too little fun).
• General criteria/requirements: the usual stuff - spatial/positional play, interaction, opportunity for table talk and strong emotions and, you know, fun.

Now, the games in question:

SEMI-ABSTRACTS
I had ignored these games for a long time, because I had always assumed that abstract = bad, but then I got Tigris & Euphrates, which proved an instant hit with my group, and now I'm looking for something that would provide similar experience.

• Taluva & Attika - These are designed by the same guy and both look pretty sweet. Is there a chance that I will enjoy them?
• Domaine & Löwenherz - I would really like to give one of these a try, but I'm still confused as to which is the one to get. There are people who swear by one, and criticize the other. Löwenherz is said to be the “deeper” game. Opinions?
• Samurai, Through the Desert, Kingdoms, Blue Moon City - Nothing says “semi-abstract” like a Knizia game - again, the problem is which one to choose. I understand that Through the Desert should be the best one out of these four. (At the moment, I'm not interested in non-spatial Knizias like Ra.)
• Reef Encounter - I must admit I'm not that crazy about the theme, and I know that opinions are pretty much divided on this one. Still, it gets compared to T&E so often that it manages to keep my interest.

SOME OTHER GAMES

• Primordial Soup - It looks pretty silly, but I know some of you seem to like it. But is it great or only OK? DISREGARD, there's a recent thread about it.
• Lost Valley - I found a great deal on it and I like its looks. I think I will buy it unless you'll convince me to change my mind.
• Tikal - Something about it puts me off, but I can't tell what it is exactly. Worth giving it a try?
• Evo - I like the premise and I'm in love with the art in the new edition. Is there any reason for me not to get it?
• Serenissima - It's getting a reprint from Ystari soon - should I look out for it?
• Elfenland & Elfengold - Something tells me I shouldn't bother, but I'm putting it here just in case.

Again, thanks for any comments and suggestions.

(I know all of these games have been already discussed on the Fortress, and I've already did all my search; however, I'm still undecided and I need opinions about them to be shouted right into my face. If you think I'm lazy and egoistical for starting such a thread – please accept my apologies.)

I can only speak on Blue Moon City. BMC is rather turdly. Knizia designed the game to be so even and so close that no matter how you play, you only win/lose by one or two points. BMC contains no relevant decisions.

Knizia's other title, Blue Moon, is a much better game. Blue Moon is highly interactive and allows for a lot of trash talk. The only drawback is the game is designed for two. To counteract this, you can hold a Blue Moon tournament with your friends.

You can download a copy of Blue Moon to test it out online.

Seconding that Blue Moon City is crap. It's another boring Euro where the players race for points by playing cards, like Ticket to Ride or Thurn and Taxis. It looks pretty surreal though. Take one of the large dragon minis and stick it up your ass, it will likely offer more fun and excitement.

Samurai is good as an almost pure abstract game, and works really well with all player counts, which is rare. It's a bit on the mathy side, but giving players control of when to end the game really made it work. I'd easily recommend this to anyone who likes T&E.

Through the Desert is ok, but I found it a bit bland. Kind of like multiplayer Go lite. I don't know why it didn't click, but Samarkand: Routes to Riches felt better somehow.

Reef Encounter was too complex for it's own good. The first few times I played it I couldn't figure it out and wanted to try it again. By around the fifth game I still didn't have any grasp on it, and figured that was a sign that it was almost completely random. I dunno, you might like it, but try before buying if you can.

Attika felt like a Euro version of Hex for up to four. The civilization theme felt tacked on at first, but does make a difference in the game. It would fit well with the semi-abstract group of games you are looking at. Same with Taluva.

I'd pass on Lowenherz. There's better stuff out there.

I like Through the Desert a lot; it's light, it's fun, and it has cute pastel camels.
superflycircus.blogspot.com/2010/08/thro...od-have-thought.html

Buy El Grande. Player interaction, screwery, and an assload of fun. Probably my 3rd or 4th favorite game.

Tikal....I hate to admit it but it's getting a lot of playtime at my place. My buddy's wife loves it, and the more I play it, the more I can tolerate it. While I initally called it a 5 or so, I'd call it a 7 now. If you don't have people that take FOREVER to make up their minds, it's better.

I'll expand on this later, but definite yes on Attika and Domaine. Serenissima is awesome too. You really should look at Ra and Medici. Also, have a loOk at Olympos and Evo.

I do think Samurai and Tikal are worth a few plays each. After that they are off to the trade pile. Since they are older titles you should be able to borrow a copy or find them second hand for a decent price. As for the rest, skip 'em.

-Will

I played Elfenland a few times years ago and remember it as ok fun. However, I also remember that usually there was only a few points between the players, so it became too close to be really funny.

I've had Reef Encounter on my shelf for four or five years, I think, but haven't gotten around to actually playing it. But recently I reread the rules and punched the counters and though it looks overly complicated, I'm dying to try it.

Tikal not worth it in the long term...good for a couple of plays but then you want to shoot yourself in the head.

Oy vey. That's a lot.

Attika is better than Taluva with a hint of Settlers, and a ton of really tricky tile placement screwage and balance. It doesn't feel THAT abstract because there is quite a bit going on. Taluva is rather simpler and does a nice bit with 3D tile placement. It does feel more abstract, but is quite short and pleasant.

Lowenherz and Domaine are almost the same game. The original uses a silly simultaneous choose actions thing. If two players choose the same actions, then they have to bid for the right to actually do something. Domaine replaces mostly just this system. I always felt that success in Lowenherz was based on not choosing what others picked. Others apparently feel that this adds depth and strategy.

Samurai, Through The Desert, Kingdoms, Blue Moon City. I'm relatively fond of Blue Moon City of these, which has a mix of resource management and distance. Through the Desert is mostly about placement, but it has so many scoring systems that it kind of feels like a point counting exercise.

Reef Encounter. Kind of like T&E. Whenever I've played it, I realize that I'd rather be playing T&E.

Lost Valley: Good, possibly great. While it is lacking a ton of event cards and things, there is a good sense of exploration, and the odd bit of claim jumping. The game really does sell its theme which is hard to do given the purity of the rules.

Tikal: The first of Kramer's point counting exercises. It is the best owing to its relative simplicity and the sense of exploration involved with turning over tiles. At the time, it was great and amazing. Now, rather less so.

Evo: Adore it. Primordial Soup is a better game that is similar. The game does have a nice sense of progression and involves combat and a nice share of wackiness.

Serenissima. I have the original, and am tempted to buy the new one. The original is a GREAT bit of Francotrash with some Euro ideas hiding in the middle of an expansion and piratey game. The downside is that the original always fell apart at the end. It turned into a massive bloodbath where you tried to attack with everything you had to make 1 or two points. I'm all for this, but it took too long and felt a little cheesy.

Elfenland/Elfengold. I still like Elfenland, but I'm also partial to route optimization and kind of like that silly German postal game everyone rails on about. Elfengold adds in some auctions that makes the game more strategic, but at the cost of nearly doubling play length.

Wow, thanks to all of you for your answers (with some bonus thanks going to moofrank for his incredibly detailed post). I'm amazed and grateful that you actually found the time and effort to comment on my completely arbitrary list of games. My priorities are getting clearer now (for one thing, I think I'll pass on Tikal and Blue Moon City). Of course, any further comments would be most appreciated as well.

What a nice place (not that I didn't know until now). I guess I should hang out more around here.

ptkw wrote: What a nice place (not that I didn't know until now). I guess I should hang out more around here.

I wouldn't do that. We're all horrible, nasty, negative, hateful people, according to the received wisdom. But welcome to the site anyway.

Attika is great. Totally one of my favourite euros. It has a really nice balance of randomness, spatial strategy, economic strategy and good old- fashioned player interaction.

I recently listed Samurai in an article as the worst hobby game I've ever played. I stand by that opinion.

Tikal is ... Okay. It's thematic and challenging but I found it very dry. That's pretty much the death knell of games in my opinion. But considering how ubiquitous actions points are as a mechanic there aren't many better euros that use it. Trias maybe.

Evo is a very good game in it's original format but of course we don't entirely know what the reprint is going to be like it. It's a very good blend of game styles, a bit of auction here, a bit of optimisation there. It even has a combat resolution table! I think that made a lot of purists dislike it. Ignore them, they're snobs. It scratches lots of itches. And it has dinosaurs.

Get Wallenstein, it's very good. Play genoa, it's also very good. Don't discount Ra as it's very unlike most Knizia games in that's it's actually lots of fun.

You heard about Imperial? Listen to my opinionated ranting for more than a few minutes and you will.

Löwenherz: Can't remember what the difference between it and Domaine are. But, then, I had Löwenherz, so had no real interest in finding out. Vote: Löwenherz, especially if you can get it dirt cheap like I did.

Samurai: SHRIEK! Run away. Reading the Counter magazine article analysing the nonsensical scoring (doing better can score less) put this in my 'avoid like the plague' category. Some will be for it, but please, don't waste your time on this.

Through the Desert: Played a few times and enjoyed. sounds a likely candidate for you group's enjoyment.

Reef Encounter: Known as Fucking Reef Encounter on F:AT. You're not that crazy about the theme? You fight by everting your stomach - how AT is that?!

Primordal Soup: It's fun!

Lost Valley: Having found a great deal on it, I'd say yes. I like it, it's very good.

Tikal: Played quite a bit, always enjoyed it. (Didn't bother with Tikal II though.)

Evo: Played a few times, it's okay but I wouldn't recommend it.

Serenissima: I bought it because it was recommended, so again, I'd vote yes.

Have you considered Torres? For some reason your list made me think it might be a good fit for your group.

Million Dollar Mimring wrote: " turdly"
Is that in the F:AT Glossary? Deserves a place.

Thanks for some more enlightening thoughts. I've dropped some titles from my “maybe” list altogether (Samurai, Tikal), and put some others on the proper wishlist.

Matt:
I've ended up here as a result of entertaining some pretty negative, perhaps even hateful, thoughts about a certain popular boardgaming website, which upon my decision to get into the hobby has told me to buy Ticket to Ride, Carcassonne, Lost Cities and Stone Age (because the only way to start playing board games is with a set of “gateway games”) and to avoid Settlers (“replaced by better, modern designs”, obviously) and all the Ameritrash titles (“random”, “childish”). Actually, I think I've found about the F:AT in a fit of rage after being called all kinds of names in my own Recommendations thread because I dared to say that I'm not interested in purchasing Agricola and that I don't particularly like its artwork. Reading the articles and forums on the Fortress was the most refreshing experience, which helped me to finally find some games that I actually enjoy. It seems that I'm quite a horrible person myself, so I guess I should fit in.

Obviously, I've read your praise of Imperial, and I would have it on my shelf already if it's theme wouldn't be such a major turn-off for my group. We REALLY don't like anything that has to do with business, industry and modern economy (for the same reason I feel no inclination to play the train games or something like Acquire or McMulti/Crude).

As for Ra, I would like to eventually give it a try, but currently I'm in the mood for something that is played on a map.

Notahandle:
My primary source of getting information on the games is now GeekBuddy Analysis conducted on a carefully selected group, and since Torres seems to be hated by most of the people there, I had always skipped it. I'll investigate it, though.

Welcome, pktw. Despite our reputation as the mean and nasties, we're all actually rather nice (but opinionated) people. We really appreciate having you.

I will strongly back up the suggestion for Ra. Great game.

I never had the chance to play Wallenstein, but given how much I love Shogun, I'll likely pick it up when the reprint comes out. As of now, Shogun is my favorite Euro.