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× Talk about Eurogames here.

Eurogames evangelism?

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22 Feb 2013 20:03 #144964 by Juniper
Replied by Juniper on topic Re: Eurogames evangelism?
This is why the internet is stupid and will never catch on.
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22 Feb 2013 20:16 - 22 Feb 2013 20:17 #144968 by Sagrilarus

jeb wrote: 1) the Fort is third on Google for "ameritrash" and 2) the named link to it is "Fortress: Front Page." I know we're not exactly obsessed with SEO here, but this could be tuned a little.


I believe we were intentionally de-tuned because we were drawing a particular crowd that wasn't at all interested in games.

I need Lent to end because Pete's posts are looking awfully well-reasoned these days.

S.
Last edit: 22 Feb 2013 20:17 by Sagrilarus.
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22 Feb 2013 20:23 #144969 by repoman
Replied by repoman on topic Re: Eurogames evangelism?

jeb wrote: Guys, it's the Internet. Everyone's an expert.


Correction:

Guy's it's the Internet. I'm an expert. The rest of you are mouth breathing, knuckle dragging, asshats.

Also, any fool who lauds Blargin fon Bluggleblat as anything other than the epitome of all that is wrong in the world needs to be severely reprimanded.
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22 Feb 2013 20:24 - 22 Feb 2013 20:27 #144970 by Schweig!
Replied by Schweig! on topic Re: Eurogames evangelism?

jeb wrote: The most upsetting things about this article for me was finding out that 1) the Fort is third on Google for "ameritrash" and 2) the named link to it is "Fortress: Front Page." I know we're not exactly obsessed with SEO here, but this could be tuned a little.

I've added references to Fortress: Ameritrash to both the first and second search results on Google.
Last edit: 22 Feb 2013 20:27 by Schweig!.
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22 Feb 2013 20:30 #144974 by OldHippy
Replied by OldHippy on topic Re: Eurogames evangelism?
I like the article. It's easy to read.

I think it's pretty weird though that in his attempt to prove that X genre is de-facto better than Y genre he writes in a style that AT commentators have been using for years. Not the typical shit pseudo intellectual style that Euro commentators normally use. Part of why even though I find the article easy to read I still completely disagree with it. The guy doesn't even totally seem to believe what he's saying and then he give Chaos in the Old World as an example of an Ameritrash game? Doesn't really make a lot of sense.

I completely believe that game quality is NOT subjective. Some games are just plain old better than others, suck it up buttercup. However to say one whole genre is better than another is ridiculous. What better, Country, Blues, Metal, Jazz, or Hip-Hop.. ya see? It's just a stupid question with no real answer. Inside those genre's you can start finding some objectivity and make sense of things. Backstreet Boys are objectively bad, but the notion of five or whatever number of guys singing together,,, even sappy love songs... isn't necessarily bad.

So while I enjoy his AT style metaphors and his confidence in his opinion... he's just wrong and should look at things on a game by game basis. It's also a very old news kind of article with nothing to say to me that I haven't heard before. I just found his writing easy to get through... that alone is rare in this field so I'll cut him some slack by over mentioning it.

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22 Feb 2013 20:37 #144980 by wice
Replied by wice on topic Re: Eurogames evangelism?

DukeofChutney wrote:

wice wrote: Anyone who thinks that Quinns is a "Euro-guy" obviously didn't see a single episode of SU&SD.


This is why i was surprised when i read it, because i've heard him bash multiplayer solitare before and hes promoted many AT games.

IMO either he on a come down after too much FFG (all the games he sidelines are FFG i think), or hes recently become a Feld fan and has decided that all his old ways were a waste of time, or its Kotaku and so he has to up the ante.


From the article: "Finally, you'll be enjoying everything the hobby has to offer, and you will be at peace. Because a board gamer cannot survive on theme alone."

He's obviously saying that there are great games in all genres. Yes, the text in the link is somewhat sensationalist and confrontational ("forget-game-of-thrones-the-best-board-games-are-german+style"). It was probably the original title, then he decided against it.

Don't forget that he's writing for a primarily video game site. It's a fair assumption that most of the guys there will get introduced to the hobby through thematic games, and he wants them to try other types of board games as well. I'm perfectly sure he's smart enough not to think that one type of game is objectively better than the other. But he's also smart enough to know how to make an impact through writing. You won't pique any interest by humbly muttering "maybe, possibly, some of you may find these other kinds of games interesting too, maybe". Instead, he writes a narrative of his reader's future career in boardgames, knowing very well that it probably won't exactly be like that for most of them. That's just his style, and it's pretty effective. I think board gaming was in desperate need for an advocate like him.
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22 Feb 2013 20:41 #144982 by wice
Replied by wice on topic Re: Eurogames evangelism?

JonJacob wrote: I like the article. It's easy to read.

I think it's pretty weird though that in his attempt to prove that X genre is de-facto better than Y genre he writes in a style that AT commentators have been using for years. Not the typical shit pseudo intellectual style that Euro commentators normally use. Part of why even though I find the article easy to read I still completely disagree with it. The guy doesn't even totally seem to believe what he's saying and then he give Chaos in the Old World as an example of an Ameritrash game? Doesn't really make a lot of sense.

I completely believe that game quality is NOT subjective. Some games are just plain old better than others, suck it up buttercup. However to say one whole genre is better than another is ridiculous. What better, Country, Blues, Metal, Jazz, or Hip-Hop.. ya see? It's just a stupid question with no real answer. Inside those genre's you can start finding some objectivity and make sense of things. Backstreet Boys are objectively bad, but the notion of five or whatever number of guys singing together,,, even sappy love songs... isn't necessarily bad.

So while I enjoy his AT style metaphors and his confidence in his opinion... he's just wrong and should look at things on a game by game basis. It's also a very old news kind of article with nothing to say to me that I haven't heard before. I just found his writing easy to get through... that alone is rare in this field so I'll cut him some slack by over mentioning it.


Where exactly in the article does he say that Euro games are better than AT games?

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22 Feb 2013 20:46 #144986 by Schweig!
Replied by Schweig! on topic Re: Eurogames evangelism?

wice wrote: Yes, the text in the link is somewhat sensationalist and confrontational ("forget-game-of-thrones-the-best-board-games-are-german+style"). It was probably the original title, then he decided against it.

To quote the ShamWow guy:

"Made in Germany. You know the Germans always make good stuff."
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22 Feb 2013 21:09 - 22 Feb 2013 21:10 #145011 by OldHippy
Replied by OldHippy on topic Re: Eurogames evangelism?

wice wrote: Where exactly in the article does he say that Euro games are better than AT games?


Maybe we didn't read the same article but the tone was all about how Euro's are better. Saying it in as clear a form as you're asking me to quote would ruin his article... he has to write and we have to read... between the lines at times.

things like this are subtle:

"No good will come of this."


or this

It's simply that Ameritrash also focuses on an immediacy of entertainment, from unboxing the thing, to screwing over your friends, to rolling chunky handfuls of dice.

But where does it lead you?


"immediacy of entertainment" he's implying that they loose their luster faster. He makes that more clear later on in the article:

Eurogame designers are free to make nothing more, or less, than a great game, a rich game, that'll get better every time you play it.

... and AT designer aren't free to do this?

Then there's throw away comments about Euro's like this:

Being tested—really tested—for the first time in your gory board game careers.


Which the author clearly thinks is a good thing. Now I realize I haven't given you concrete proof but I really believe you're not reading the article properly if you think he's saying all genre's are equal. The clear intent is that AT games are ok for getting into the hobby, even great games some of them but clearly not as intellectual or truly well designed as the masterpieces in the Euro empire.

Short of you reading it differently, I can't give you an exact example because he's not such a shitty writer that he uses one.
Last edit: 22 Feb 2013 21:10 by OldHippy.
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22 Feb 2013 21:11 #145014 by dragonstout
I'd love more openness to Euros around here. I think other than Agricola, I don't think I've bought a straight-up German board game that was published post-2001; I've gotten way too narrow in ignoring any kind of talk about Euros over the past 7 years or so, having just assumed that the age of the Euro is over. I'd love to open my mind to good Euros again, and NOT just the Euros that are deemed "good" here because they've got killing or whatever. One thing's for sure, I'm WAY the hell sick of FFG games, and have been for a while. Really I've been interested in traditional games, i.e. abstracts and card games, more than anything else "new to me" lately.

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22 Feb 2013 21:44 - 22 Feb 2013 21:45 #145034 by DukeofChutney
i've recently sold all but TI2 of my FFG games. I generally hunt AH/SPI/GDW games down.


I hear what your saying Wice, but just read the comments at the bottom of the article. It would appear his point has been lost on the majority of readers. I do think hes trying in strong words to advise a little diversity, but makes it damn hard to tell, and consequently comes across like someone trying to pick a fight.
Last edit: 22 Feb 2013 21:45 by DukeofChutney.
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22 Feb 2013 21:47 #145035 by Bull Nakano
This article straight up says GoT, CitOW and BSG are "great games", it's just a piece to help people who stumble board gaming through licensed games to expand their views.
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22 Feb 2013 22:12 #145037 by SuperflyPete

TheDukester wrote: You're reading different posts than I am, then.

Perhaps so. I'm just not seeing outrage as much as ridicule.

I loathe ... lowest-common-denominator formula.


Shit. I lost another reader. ;)

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23 Feb 2013 04:22 #145067 by Schweig!
Replied by Schweig! on topic Re: Eurogames evangelism?
urban dict decided not to publish my definition:

Ameritrash

Originally intended as a deprecatory term for board games carrying fantasy, sci-fi and similar themes and involving elements of chaos and violence. Soon embraced by fans of said games, rallying under the term against the arrogance of snotty players of allegedly more sophisticated games like Puerto Rico, which is about running a slave plantation most efficiently.

Eurosnoot says: "Slaying dragons is so Ameritrash. I'd rather contemplate about more mentally stimulating choices, like whether to open a tobacco plantation or to invest my doubloons in a new shipload of slaves."

The website FortressAT dot com is dedicated to all things Ameritrash.

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23 Feb 2013 11:13 - 23 Feb 2013 11:14 #145085 by Erik Twice
Yet another "controversial" article where certain, poorly-defined qualities are abscribed to a difuse concept for some silly point that wasn't worth writing on the first place. And, as you would expect from a terrible porn site disguising as "game journalism" they didn't have the balls to stand by their word and changed the title.

But the biggest failing of the article is that it says nothing, does nothing and never bothers to make a stand or argument. He spent hundreds of words to say the following:

1) Don't you just hate when bullshit happens?
2) Eurogames are tense!

That's it. Two ideas that weren't worth my two lines, much less a thousand-word article. I can forgive the concendension, the silly "There has to be more than this", the gratuitous yet censored "fuck" but I can't forgive one thousand words to convey nothing.


EDIT: I'll be frank. He had to fill a quota and couldn't quite make it so he added fluff. Revised fluff, sure, but still fluff. Hypocrital of me to say it, but it's my impression.
Last edit: 23 Feb 2013 11:14 by Erik Twice.
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