Let's Talk Some Knizia Games

Split from the front page, I'm a fan and own a number of his games.

We play quite a bit of BattleLine, Kingdoms, LotR: The Confrontation, and Colossal Arena, but I also really enjoy Beowulf: The Legend (wish this was in a smaller box), Ivanhoe, and the occasional game of Lost Cities.

However there are three that I've sorta had my eye on for awhile and wonder if they're worth obtaining.

DragonLand - I understand to be a kids game, but is it a good one?

Rheinländer - I think it has one of the best box covers in boardgaming, but is the game itself any good?

Formula Motor Racing - We're looking at picking up Detroit/Cleveland Grand Prix. I played a ton of it back in college, and would like a copy. How does this Knizia game compare to Detroit/Cleveland?

Never played T&E...for some reason it doesn't seem to speak to me.

Jeff White hasn't played Tigris & Euphrates? And this is after I already know you've never played Acquire. Man, those strike me as total Jeff games. Really tight, well-designed, and self-contained. And they're even older designs!

I haven't played Dragonland, Rheinlander, or Forumla Motor Racing. But since we're talking about Herr Doctor, here are my favorite Knizia games:

Ra - I figured out that the reason I don't like 7 Wonders is because it's like someone looked at Ra and thought the set-collecting was the most interesting part. Ra has my favorite auction of any game ever, and it's Knizia's best game.

Tigris & Euphrates - It came out 15 years ago, and there still hasn't been a game that's ever come close to approximating the feel of this one. It's a multi-player conflict game filtered through Euro design, and it's just terrific.

Lord of the Rings - I'm not as high on it as Barnes or Jeff are, but I do think it's really compelling. The downside is that I've found it only really becomes worth the time when you're really experienced with it. It's also been a very hard sell for my group. Most of plays have been solo. I really wish FFG would reprint the expansions.

Battle Line - I've thawed just a little on Lost Cities, but frankly Battle Line does all of the good things Lost Cities does, and it does them better. Just outstanding tension and brutally difficult decisions.

Taj Mahal - I've only played this one twice, and I'm not very good at it. But I remain entirely fascinated by the design itself. It's very much about playing the other players, learning when to push and when to hold back, all in about 90 minutes.

Ra is pretty good; it hits the fun/analysis mark almost perfectly.

Battle Line is really pretty fun, and as Nate said, it's better than Lost Cities because it doesn't have the onerous scoring maths.

Lost Cities can fucking die in a fire.

T&E is easily in my top 10 most overrated, boring, insipid, droll, and utterly fucking boring games of all time.

LoTR initially was a game I had, tried twice, and then literally threw it in the trash can. Then I played it about a year later with different people, one of whom owned it and played it often, and who kind of guided us all through "how to play". That was the missing factor - the rules are a bit hard to follow (for me, at least) and having someone explain it made it WAY easier to understand.

Kind of wish I hadn't shit canned it. I ended up getting another copy at one point, but never got to play it, so I traded/sold it.

Star Trek...well, I love it. Some people don't. It's a really fun game until you have played it a lot. If you are the "achievement" kind of person who chases scores, maybe it will play longer trying to get a perfect score, but after ~10 plays, I'm over it.

En Garde is actually a really fun little game. I think it's Special K's best simple design. I didn't like it at first but I had a summer of playing it with the wife and learned to like it.

Samurai is EASILY the best game he ever made, from design quality to depth.

Through The Desert is probably the second-best or third-best area control game ever. Even the pastel camels are awesome. Great, great, great game that sits proudly on my Forever Shelf.

Tower of Babel is something I never hear much about. It's a decent little game, but it's nothing all that special. I like the ~idea~ but I think Blue Moon CITY is kind of similar and is far better.

EDIT: NOT BLUE MOON, BLUE MOON CITY

Blue Moon is OK for a card game. I'm not a huge fan of these kinds of games.

Ohh...I forgot Blue Moon. I asked about it previously, but I'll go ahead and re-include it here.

Blue Moon - Pokemon has cooled in our house (thankfully), but I do like ccg type games occasionally, so there's some interest in Blue Moon. I understand some folks feel the art is a bit risque, but what are we talking about here? Hyper sexualized? scantily clad? both? I'm not adverse to a little skin as long as it's tasteful, if it's just for sensualization I'll likely pass.

Through the Desert is definitely a good one. I had a copy for a while but literally no one else wanted to play it with me.

Jeff:





Matt Fantastic is exploding in furious wrath right now.

Looks like a mix of German and US cards? Are those in both? Also, I'm guessing these are characters from the same faction. If so, it would seem to be possible to just not include this faction as a choice during play and all would be fine.

It's not worse than any other Frazetta/Vallejo style fantasy art. And it's really just that one faction. The rest are like, bird people and fire people and stuff. I just got the Legends set yesterday, it's definitely worth having.

Rheinlander is good, it's sort of an Acquire-style game but instead of plots placed on a grid, they're on a linear track. I'd like to get a copy of this again. It was actually a Hasbro game over in Europe.

Dragonland I haven't played in a long time but I liked it. Something to do with gathering dragon eggs out of volcanoes and there's a cool dice tower involved. I should get this one again too.

Formula Motor Sport is a fun race game, very simple and easy to play. We used to play with Richard Launius' modified set, which inculded Micro Machines, two sets of cards, and some additional rules.

Pretty much all of the "marquee" Knizia games are stone classics. Some of the lesser known/less reputable titles are negligible, but some are really good. But the core ludography is all great:

Tigris & Euphrates
Samurai
Medici
Ra
Modern Art
Lord of the Rings
Through the Desert
Battleline/Schotten-Totten (one of the most influential games ever, BTW)
Taj Mahal
Lost Cities
Blue Moon

But then those really good ones like Ivanhoe, Rheinlander, Beowulf, Money, Amun-Re and so forth are really just below that tier.

Then there's Clash of the Gladiators...such a strange game. I might pick it up again, I'm curious.

I'll throw Amazing Flea Circus in for anyone with kids. Has Kinizia's flair, in a simple game with great looking little critters. Played this one plenty with my four kids.

S.

DRAGONLAND is a good time. Roll and move game with set collection. It's a kids game, but it's a good one.

How the world managed to make SuperflyTNT is beyond me: loves STONE AGE and hates TIGRIS & EUPHRATES. That's just wrong. Play T&E, it's a classic and deservedly so. I know the guy finally won the SdJ for his Teris game or whatever the fuck, but this was his best design.

SCHOTTEN-TOTTEN is the shit. BATTLELINE is complicated for little gain. You can play SHOTTEN-TOTTEN with a RAGE deck, along with a zillion other games (LOST CITIES, EN GARDE, &c). Get one of those, they are like $5 at Target.

MODERN ART is the best auction game, bar none. Game fucking rocks.

I like LORD OF THE RINGS and everyone has hated on me for that in the past. Are you talking the co-op game or the STRATEGO game? I like the co-op game, but everyone goes nuts for that STRATEGO one.

Modern Art is a design I admire more than I enjoy. It's maybe his most interactive game, but at least three of my five or six games went completely pear-shaped based on inexperienced players. I'm willing to say it's a great design more than I'm willing to play it again.

Knizia has a ton of games that everyone loves, most people own, and hardly anyone plays. At various times I've owned Samurai, Through the Desert, Rheinlander, and a few others, but nowadays the only one still on my shelf (because it gets plays) is T&E. Oh wait, I have Quandary there, but it doesn't come out much, as it's the gorgeous overproduced bakelite version that isn't worth toting around. I do have Poison and Battle Line, but only because they're small card games; the never get played. Lost Cities is one my wife likes (and I do too) so its stayed on the 2p shelf after Times Square and others have left.

I haven't played too many Knizias I just flat out don't like (well, I wasn't crazy about LoTR, either one) but there are few that I find myself hankering to play. I respect a lot of them more than I want to play them.

Man, I love Knizia! In fact, I actually played Medici just last night. (I lost, as usual, despite leading the first two rounds. I underbid a crucial late offering because I thought no one would challenge me for it.)

The classics have all been mentioned, but I'll add a few more to the list:

Amun-Re - I don't understand why this one isn't more respected. I think it's a fantastic design. The mid-game property reset is brilliant.

Traumfabrik - A closed-economy auction game. It was reprinted as Dream Factory, but you really should make the effort to get the original German edition.

Lego mentioned Quandary (which I have and love as well), but the game has been published many times in different forms (Loco, Botswana). It's such a minimal design, yet totally effective.

Loot is another game that's usually targeted at children due to its simplicity, but is actually quite good for adults. Can usually be found dirt cheap at Target, too.

LOTR: The Confrontation is one of the best two player games ever made. Sure, it's Stratego...but it's so refined and the LOTR setting really comes through. It really feels like the Fellowship player is trying to screen Frodo and engage the Shadow. Mirror plays like both a hunt and a crushing military campaign. I love the deluxe edition, the extra characters add a lot of variety without fouling the balance.

Kingdoms/Auf Heller und Pfennig is another good one.

Knizia games I still own. The first three are on my forever shelf. The first two are in my top five favorite games.

Tigris & Euphrates
Ra
LotR The Confrontation
Fabrik der Traume
Medici
Through the Desert
Keltis: Das Kartenspiel
Circus Flohcati
Blue Moon legends
Carcassone the Castle

I like a lot of his games, but to me nothing has stood out from him in the past decade. All his best designs are his older ones.