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Kniza's Lord of the Rings: An interesting divide

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16 Apr 2015 14:51 #200888 by Erik Twice
I've been reading about Kniza's Lord of the Rings lately and I'm surprised by how divise the game is even amongst the users of this forum. Ken thinks it's a masterpiece, Matt hates it and Barnes has gone from loving it, to hating it, to loving it again. And this is very intriguing to me!

As someone who has never played the game, one of the weirdest things about it is not so much the debate about how thematic it really is, but how different the perceptions of the actual game mechanics are. Lots of players think the game is extremely railroaded while fans praise its replayability and depth. Similarly, half the players think it's easy to win while the other half think its difficulty is part of its appeal.

What's the deal with this game?

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16 Apr 2015 14:53 #200891 by Black Barney
and what's the deal with Grape Nuts??
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16 Apr 2015 14:56 #200892 by ChristopherMD
If cards weren't hidden it would be a solitaire puzzle game. So really the only thing any player brings to the table is his/her ability to hold cards.

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16 Apr 2015 15:08 #200897 by charlest
My biggest complaint is that it's extremely boring.

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16 Apr 2015 15:17 #200903 by Legomancer
I only played once and thought it was dull. But I am the world's only nerd who doesn't give a fuck about the Lord of the Rings, so.

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16 Apr 2015 15:28 #200904 by cfmcdonald

Mad Dog wrote: If cards weren't hidden it would be a solitaire puzzle game. So really the only thing any player brings to the table is his/her ability to hold cards.


The same could be said of any co-op game, really. I haven't played the game in years, but I enjoyed it greatly when I have. It's thematic, challenging, requires hard choices, and is easily accessible to non-gamers.

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16 Apr 2015 15:35 - 16 Apr 2015 15:36 #200907 by ChristopherMD

cfmcdonald wrote:

Mad Dog wrote: If cards weren't hidden it would be a solitaire puzzle game. So really the only thing any player brings to the table is his/her ability to hold cards.


The same could be said of any co-op game, really. I haven't played the game in years, but I enjoyed it greatly when I have. It's thematic, challenging, requires hard choices, and is easily accessible to non-gamers.


Not any co-op game I want to play. Arkham Horror has perfect information of what each player has, but isn't solvable like a puzzle because of the encounter cards and dice. I admittedly have also not played LotR in many years. I always thought it was a boring activity when I did.
Last edit: 16 Apr 2015 15:36 by ChristopherMD.

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16 Apr 2015 15:59 #200913 by cfmcdonald

Mad Dog wrote:

cfmcdonald wrote:

Mad Dog wrote: If cards weren't hidden it would be a solitaire puzzle game. So really the only thing any player brings to the table is his/her ability to hold cards.


The same could be said of any co-op game, really. I haven't played the game in years, but I enjoyed it greatly when I have. It's thematic, challenging, requires hard choices, and is easily accessible to non-gamers.


Not any co-op game I want to play. Arkham Horror has perfect information of what each player has, but isn't solvable like a puzzle because of the encounter cards and dice. I admittedly have also not played LotR in many years. I always thought it was a boring activity when I did.


LotR also has randomness in card draws and tile draws. I don't see any difference in that sense. I won't argue with your judgment that it's boring, that's simply a matter of taste.

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16 Apr 2015 16:10 #200919 by Grudunza
I still love it and try to play it once a year or so. To me, the tension and pressure as you get into Mordor is particularly great, and I think it holds up as being unique among co-op games... Most co-ops since have modeled Pandemic or Ghost Stories, and I think LOTR has some great mechanics which are also nicely thematic, like the ring effect. I prefer it with Battlefields, but base game alone is still solid.

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16 Apr 2015 19:07 - 16 Apr 2015 19:11 #200934 by wkover
Lord of the Rings blew my mind "way" back in 2000 because it was the first coop that I ever played. Like, ever. I received it as an Xmas present that year, I believe. (Remember, this was before any of the Jackson movies had been released.)

I tend to be overly competitive in games (less so nowadays, I hope), and it was nice (for the first time) to put that aside, work together with friends/family, and put a mighty finger in the Big Eye. Plus, I've been a LOTR fan since I was a kid.

If I played LOTR for the first time today, I'm not sure what I'd think. But back then it was awesome.

Edit: LOTR is also unique because it was one of the first games that drove me to seek out internet rules clarifications. Stumbling across Chris Lawson's rewritten rulebook was a godsend. We'd been playing tons of stuff incorrectly up until that point. (The original wasn't the best rulebook, I don't think.)
Last edit: 16 Apr 2015 19:11 by wkover.

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16 Apr 2015 21:51 #200938 by Ancient_of_MuMu
It fails the Frank Branham test (this is me, those are mine), so you have to make very big logical leaps to work out the theme. Also the fact that the group is together does make it much more susceptible to one player dominating the game, as in Arkham you can wander off and do your own thing if you disagree with an Alpha Dog.
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16 Apr 2015 22:21 #200940 by Shellhead

cfmcdonald wrote:

Mad Dog wrote:

cfmcdonald wrote:

Mad Dog wrote: If cards weren't hidden it would be a solitaire puzzle game. So really the only thing any player brings to the table is his/her ability to hold cards.


The same could be said of any co-op game, really. I haven't played the game in years, but I enjoyed it greatly when I have. It's thematic, challenging, requires hard choices, and is easily accessible to non-gamers.


Not any co-op game I want to play. Arkham Horror has perfect information of what each player has, but isn't solvable like a puzzle because of the encounter cards and dice. I admittedly have also not played LotR in many years. I always thought it was a boring activity when I did.


LotR also has randomness in card draws and tile draws. I don't see any difference in that sense. I won't argue with your judgment that it's boring, that's simply a matter of taste.


You are missing an important distinction. AmeriTrash games tend to offer you a decision with the outcome in doubt, creating drama. Eurogames like LotR put the randomness first, leaving the player with a more obvious and less interesting decision to make in response.

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16 Apr 2015 23:41 #200945 by cfmcdonald

Shellhead wrote:

cfmcdonald wrote:

Mad Dog wrote:

cfmcdonald wrote:

Mad Dog wrote: If cards weren't hidden it would be a solitaire puzzle game. So really the only thing any player brings to the table is his/her ability to hold cards.


The same could be said of any co-op game, really. I haven't played the game in years, but I enjoyed it greatly when I have. It's thematic, challenging, requires hard choices, and is easily accessible to non-gamers.


Not any co-op game I want to play. Arkham Horror has perfect information of what each player has, but isn't solvable like a puzzle because of the encounter cards and dice. I admittedly have also not played LotR in many years. I always thought it was a boring activity when I did.


LotR also has randomness in card draws and tile draws. I don't see any difference in that sense. I won't argue with your judgment that it's boring, that's simply a matter of taste.


You are missing an important distinction. AmeriTrash games tend to offer you a decision with the outcome in doubt, creating drama. Eurogames like LotR put the randomness first, leaving the player with a more obvious and less interesting decision to make in response.


I still don't agree. In LotR, you have to make a decision about what to do this turn, not knowing what the next event tile will be. Did I make the right decision? Or will a Sundial come up and screw us all? Plenty of drama there.

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17 Apr 2015 04:34 #200954 by Erik Twice
I agree with cfmcdonald that the same complaints could be made for any other cooperative games. I also don't consider "Alpha dog" a problem with cooperative games anymore than "Kingmaking couple" or "Won't negotiate guy" are problems other games have.

Mad Dog wrote: If cards weren't hidden it would be a solitaire puzzle game. So really the only thing any player brings to the table is his/her ability to hold cards.

They bring their brains, their strategic skills and their views on how the game works. The interesting part of coops for me is the discussion, not whether I could solve the "puzzle" on my own.

I also see no point in hidding cards in a cooperative game in which you can freely discuss such cards. I played Pandemic with open hands and the game was faster and much more interesting because of it.

Ancient_of_MuMu wrote: It fails the Frank Branham test (this is me, those are mine), so you have to make very big logical leaps to work out the theme.

Do people really care about owning something? Perhaps I play too much 18XX but I don't see anything wrong with not having a "my guy" but "our guys".

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17 Apr 2015 10:07 #200967 by cfmcdonald

Erik Twice wrote: I

Ancient_of_MuMu wrote: It fails the Frank Branham test (this is me, those are mine), so you have to make very big logical leaps to work out the theme.

Do people really care about owning something? Perhaps I play too much 18XX but I don't see anything wrong with not having a "my guy" but "our guys".


But there is a my guy - I'm Frodo, you're Sam, she's Pippin, etc. They each have a special power. When I played, I certainly didn't like seeing my hobbit corrupted, even if in terms of optimizing for victory of the team it was the right thing to do.

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