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× Talk about Eurogames here.

Euro or Hybrid?

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18 Jul 2016 16:52 - 18 Jul 2016 17:12 #230420 by Egg Shen
Replied by Egg Shen on topic Euro or Hybrid?
See the whole "direct interaction instantly means it's not a Euro" is something I have trouble with. I once had a discussion with a guy at a game store about this and he was very adamant in his argument that to be a Euro meant there was no interference with other players. And I think that over the years that sort of thinking has become pretty much accepted. I don't necessarily buy it.

If you look at the Euro games from the 90s that came out of Germany some of them had direct screwage and some did not. I think Catan is the most obvious example with the robber mechanic. To me there is no way that is not a Euro game. It's essentially THE Euro game. Just because you can interfere with another player doesn't make it AT or a hybrid. Other games like Hoity Toity had a thief mechanic and I remember Domaine being pretty vicious. The difference is that these games are not ABOUT conflict. They are not about war or direct fighting. Essentially they are not Risk. They have many ways of winning that you need to focus on, but they offer ways to trip up other players. I think they are still Euro.

For me Cyclades and Hyperborea are hybrid games in large part because you cannot win (or it's very hard to) without direct conflict where you ATTACK other players. As in you have armies on the board where a battle takes place. Eclipse is another hybrid in that player vs player battles exist. What makes these games hybrids is that on top of the conflict are mechanics typically find in straight Euros...auctions, and things of that nature.

Straight Ameritrash is reserved for games with a certain attitude. They're confrontational, rich in setting, not worried about mechanics and usually filled with un-mitigated die rolls. These are games where you put yourself onto the board and really experience what is happening in the game's little world. When you play an Ameritrash game you know exactly the action your in game faction or piece is attempting to do. Nothing is abstracted away. This category is reserved for Betrayal at House on the Hill, Nexus Ops, Fortune and Glory, Lost Patrol, Star Wars: Risk, and Camp Grizzly.

I think the lines are indeed murkier than ever before and some games are harder to classify than others. Also, I think if you were to ask 10 different people this question you're going to get 10 different answers.
Last edit: 18 Jul 2016 17:12 by Egg Shen.
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18 Jul 2016 16:55 - 18 Jul 2016 17:24 #230421 by Colorcrayons
Replied by Colorcrayons on topic Euro or Hybrid?
This is Automobile. It is a euro.


If you personally look like this while playing a game, then it is a euro. XD I keed, I keed.

I'm not a huge proponent of classifying games beyond "Fun game", "OK game that is playable, but not quite fun", and "boring game" because I like a few euros and a lot of abstracts. Abstracts are honest about what they are, as are ameritrash. They do what they say on the tin, unapolegetically. Euros are the great liars who cause threads like this to exist.

Hybrids may as well be ameritrash. Survive I feel is a hybrid before euros were even euros. It's just well designed ameritrash. But could also be a euro that is more fun than a typical euro has any right to be. I'll side on ameritrash for Survive, though.

If there is a question of "is this a hybrid or a euro?", then in all likelihood, it's a euro. A sheep in wolves clothing.

Edit:
For the record, I think Scythe is a euro. A well dressed euro that is kind of a streamlined 4X, thats really light on the 4th X, but still just a euro.
Last edit: 18 Jul 2016 17:24 by Colorcrayons.
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18 Jul 2016 17:08 #230423 by Egg Shen
Replied by Egg Shen on topic Euro or Hybrid?
Ugggggghhh Automobile.

I'm just gonna assume that is a fat blunt and not a cigar in that fellow's hand.

The Tagline for Automobile outta be "One Good Spliff: Because You're Gonna Fucking Need it"
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18 Jul 2016 20:00 - 18 Jul 2016 20:09 #230434 by Sevej
Replied by Sevej on topic Euro or Hybrid?
Just check how much freedom you have. How much action choice do you have, and then how much choice do you have when doing that action? That's why generally games with maps are almost always AT-ish (2 dimensional movement is always more choice when compared with single dimensional variable/high-or-lows), except those where you are constrained by other mechanics (such as in Terra Mystica).

Euro loves control (that's why it has no randomness or tries to control it). Sometimes it seems to give you many, many choices, but really it isn't, especially when the goal and your what-to-do is so clear. This is a good thing since the games are stable, they're usually fun. They are rarely very exciting, but they also rarely bomb.

Just to close things out, I think Steam is very nearly AT, considering the freedom of rail planning and the fuckery.
Last edit: 18 Jul 2016 20:09 by Sevej.
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19 Jul 2016 08:21 #230462 by Legomancer
Replied by Legomancer on topic Euro or Hybrid?
For me, AT means:

direct conflict: I can target you with an attack and wreck your stuff
randomization: none of this "perfect information" bullshit. you can always play the odds
heavy theme: an attempt is made to immerse the players into the game world
centering on warfare: no one's loading spices on a boat
the players are directly competing with each other, not just seeing who solves the game the best

Obviously you won't hit all of those notes, but usually you'll hit most of them to some degree.

Even some modern Euro hybrids, when they touch on these, often do so in minor ways. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing Eurogamers that worker placement was, by default, heavy direct interaction. It can be, but it usually isn't. (If the difference is only getting TWO pigs instead of THREE then no, this is not heavy interaction.)

I'm a heretic because I maintain that Tigris and Euphrates can only be considered a Euro through some kind of grandfather clause or the same way many college students are "Native Americans". It checks every single AT box. If it were released today, and didn't have Uncle Reiner's name on it, the Tzolkin and Agricola crowd would HATE it.

I nearly bit through my tongue when someone on BGG was claiming Neuroshima Hex was a Euro.
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19 Jul 2016 09:06 #230467 by Columbob
Replied by Columbob on topic Euro or Hybrid?

Legomancer wrote: centering on warfare: no one's loading spices on a boat


Merchants & Marauders? ;)

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19 Jul 2016 18:31 #230505 by quozl
Replied by quozl on topic Euro or Hybrid?
Euro and Ameritrash are just labels. I'd rather talk about what makes a game a good game.
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19 Jul 2016 21:12 #230506 by Sevej
Replied by Sevej on topic Euro or Hybrid?

quozl wrote: Euro and Ameritrash are just labels. I'd rather talk about what makes a game a good game.


I love to talk about what makes a game tick, good, and bad, but I do love the labels also.

I find it useless to make a bullet list such as Legomancer's, because in the end it's about the overall dynamic, the sum of all parts. Invariably there will be Euros that have a lot of those elements.
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19 Jul 2016 21:13 #230507 by SuperflyPete
Replied by SuperflyPete on topic Euro or Hybrid?

Legomancer wrote: For me, AT means:

direct conflict: I can target you with an attack and wreck your stuff
randomization: none of this "perfect information" bullshit. you can always play the odds
heavy theme: an attempt is made to immerse the players into the game world
centering on warfare: no one's loading spices on a boat
the players are directly competing with each other, not just seeing who solves the game the best

Obviously you won't hit all of those notes, but usually you'll hit most of them to some degree.

Even some modern Euro hybrids, when they touch on these, often do so in minor ways. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing Eurogamers that worker placement was, by default, heavy direct interaction. It can be, but it usually isn't. (If the difference is only getting TWO pigs instead of THREE then no, this is not heavy interaction.)

I'm a heretic because I maintain that Tigris and Euphrates can only be considered a Euro through some kind of grandfather clause or the same way many college students are "Native Americans". It checks every single AT box. If it were released today, and didn't have Uncle Reiner's name on it, the Tzolkin and Agricola crowd would HATE it.

I nearly bit through my tongue when someone on BGG was claiming Neuroshima Hex was a Euro.


I agree with you on every single assertion. And most especially T&E.

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19 Jul 2016 23:38 #230509 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Euro or Hybrid?

Legomancer wrote: I nearly bit through my tongue when someone on BGG was claiming Neuroshima Hex was a Euro.

Always let them win these arguments--they really like the game and want to play it, and saying this makes it OK.
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