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So you want to build a board game?

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18 Apr 2016 11:26 #226057 by hotseatgames
I'm also in the camp of playtesting is a necessary evil. It is not a good time. And I'll add the suggestion that you get playtesters that are at least fans of the genre. My current design is a DOAM, and I had a wargamer play it. He just kept wanting it to be a wargame, and ultimately his feedback was not that useful.

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18 Apr 2016 12:52 #226065 by SuperflyPete
I call bullshit.

We spent 6 hours + play testing Seal Team Flix and the whole damned time we were laughing, high-fiving, and thinking about how to beat it next time.

We had a blast, and so much so that we have video proof of you making 8 consecutive misses and then a crazy one-shotter that made both of us get up and do the happy dance.

When we playtested Hoodrats (we meaning my group) we got fucked up and started talking like gangsters and shit. It was a blast and we played it regularly 2-3 times a night. And now that it's done and has been for 6 months I'm still getting ideas from people on what the next over-the-top expansion will be.

"Pimp hands, prostitutes, and pharmacies" is the next LOL

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18 Apr 2016 13:18 #226067 by Shellhead
Just to clarify, I don't think that playtesting automatically sucks for playtesters. If the designer has done enough work before the playtest, the playtesters should be having some fun. I meant that it sucked for me as the designer. I never seem to find playtesters who are willing to sit down and teach themselves how to play with the rules, so the playtest always starts with me teaching the rules. Then I am sitting on the sidelines taking notes and often answering questions because people still won't look at the rules. And at the end, I am taking crazy amounts of notes as people give feedback about the gameplay. Usually there is at least one person who is really just complaining that they lost, and another person with extensive suggestions for revision based on the idea that I should have designed some completely different game. If the group is slightly smaller than the minimum needed to play the game, I will sit in as a player and totally lose because I am busy analyzing how the game works instead of trying to win.

The last time that I playtested my current game was actually pretty enjoyable, at least after teaching the rules. The players discovered some important issues that I needed to address, but everybody had fun. More importantly, there was actual consensus between the seven playtesters on the elements that needed to be improved, and one of my subsequent fixes addressed several issues at once.

My worst playtest revealed several major issues early on, and they were so big that I shut down the game before it was even half over. That was still a worthwhile experience because I learned a lot in a short period of time.
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18 Apr 2016 13:44 - 18 Apr 2016 13:44 #226068 by engelstein
I would have him check out our Game Design Checklist - It's hosted on Cardboard Edison, but here's the direct link .

I've found asking these questions of your design can be really valuable for both novice and experienced game designers.

There are also a lot of resources out there, including bgdf.com and cardboardedison.com, plus Ludology of course, which focuses on game design.

Geoff
Last edit: 18 Apr 2016 13:44 by engelstein.
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18 Apr 2016 13:44 #226069 by hotseatgames

SuperflyTNT wrote: I call bullshit.

We spent 6 hours + play testing Seal Team Flix and the whole damned time we were laughing, high-fiving, and thinking about how to beat it next time.

We had a blast, and so much so that we have video proof of you making 8 consecutive misses and then a crazy one-shotter that made both of us get up and do the happy dance.

When we playtested Hoodrats (we meaning my group) we got fucked up and started talking like gangsters and shit. It was a blast and we played it regularly 2-3 times a night. And now that it's done and has been for 6 months I'm still getting ideas from people on what the next over-the-top expansion will be.

"Pimp hands, prostitutes, and pharmacies" is the next LOL


Seal Team Flix is different since we are both equally invested in it. We aren't hijacking people's free time.

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18 Apr 2016 13:45 #226070 by engelstein
Right - this is a big thing for me. I hate imposing on people to try out the latest design, when they could be playing something finished that doesn't have gaping issues.

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18 Apr 2016 14:07 #226071 by Shellhead

engelstein wrote: I would have him check out our Game Design Checklist - It's hosted on Cardboard Edison, but here's the direct link .

I've found asking these questions of your design can be really valuable for both novice and experienced game designers.

There are also a lot of resources out there, including bgdf.com and cardboardedison.com, plus Ludology of course, which focuses on game design.

Geoff


That's a great list of questions at that linked site. The color blindness question is really good. Not only are some people color blind, but there are a lot of otherwise normal folks who struggle to distinguish between red and orange, or green and turquoise. If color is going to play an important role in your components, try to also use different shapes for the colored objects, to give colorblind players an alternate source of visual information.
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18 Apr 2016 15:31 #226076 by SuperflyPete

hotseatgames wrote: Seal Team Flix is different since we are both equally invested in it. We aren't hijacking people's free time.


I don't know about "equally invested", but you did buy the staples LMAO ;)

I think that Geoff and Shellhead nailed it - if the design work is good and the proto is pleasing, then playtesting isn't a chore for the designer or participants because the game is pretty much solid at that point (or relatively solid) and thus it's not testing a game out as much as playing a new, cool game. Having players act stupidly in order to seek flaws from odd gameplay is the one thing that sucks - I've done that and it's tiresome not really making good moves, but rather anti-intuitive ones that actively seek to break the game.

Like moving my medic into a spot to heal you, despite being in LOS of 5 enemies who cut him down like a chainsaw through butter.... ;)

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18 Apr 2016 16:08 #226078 by mads b.
Everybody's said it: playtesting is super important. But not listening to your playtesters is equally important. Usually I find that boardgamers want to make their own games, and often I get A LOT of feedback that's about how the person would like the game to be rather than what actually did or didn't work in the current game. Of course you should always listen to your playtesters - especially if they point out something is bad, not optimal, not to their liking or something. But what I'm saying is that you must be prepared to ignore their feedback - especially the solutions they come up with to alleviate the problem they encountered.

Also I'm on the fence when it comes to making good looking prototypes. I know that you should always make a cheap and dirty prototype and test that for a long time, but then again part of a board game experience is usability and the components. And by making the game easy to use and by making it easy to grasp the story of the game, you also help your testers focus on the game rather than nitpicking about irrelevant stuff.
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18 Apr 2016 16:16 #226079 by Black Barney
In this specific case, I think we're in good shape cuz he'll be using playtesters he knows really well.

"Barney will complain if it goes long cuz he hates long game. Barney will go quiet and into silent protest if he's losing. Barney will make a joke about how this game would be great in a zombie theme but I need to remember he's just joking. Barney hates co-op games"

so he is going to have lines like this in his head about all his testers which is important cuz it'll allow him to sift what are the standard comments which are made all the time from the really unique perspective comments, and to read them as so.

His brother is the king of nitpicking about irrelevant stuff. i can't wait for that part. "this prototype should only be played in trailers"

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18 Apr 2016 16:44 #226081 by boothwah
Hey Barney, I'm too lazy to check the other threads for a response - How did the tests go? Did the gerbil live? Are you shooting calcium BB's?
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18 Apr 2016 17:41 #226083 by Black Barney
Counsel has advised me not to discuss it openly until this business with the SPCA is settled.

Next time we're just going to boil up some potatoes with that tennis ball machine.

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18 Apr 2016 17:52 - 18 Apr 2016 17:58 #226084 by Black Barney
Lol, oh I just realized you're not joking but are actually asking about Friday, sorry. Yeah tests showed nothing bad, so doctor chalked it up to muscular and gave me some intense anti inflammatories that say make you susceptible to sunburn and they're not kidding. Sunday was a scorcher and I was barely outside and I turned as red as a migrant farmer. Doctor was sure it was stones until he couldn't find any. Ultrasound, x-rays, all that. I think he should have done a CT with contrast but I haven't seen ER in a while and when I did, I was just staring at Dr Lewis trying to figure out why I'm so attracted to her.

The story of me trying to produce a urine sample is a little funny but not really. I also think the nurse hated me cuz that IV she put in hurt like a son of a gun. And they're not supposed to. She didn't like that I took my shift off cuz I was too lazy to roll up the sleeve of my work shirt

...dammit I'm hijacking my own thread
Last edit: 18 Apr 2016 17:58 by Black Barney.
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18 Apr 2016 19:24 - 18 Apr 2016 19:25 #226091 by wadenels
I've playtested quite a few games, everything from really good prototypes with the designer there to hand-drawn and scanned PDFs I had to construct myself. I've never felt the look and feel of the components was an issue in any way, but what is important about the components is that they convey exactly the information they need to convey and nothing more.

The rulebook is going to be really important. Not just the "How to Play" part, but also "What the hell are all these game pieces and what do I do with them?" I've found that when I've playtested games where I couldn't figure out components or get rules questions answered quickly that about 70% of my feedback ended up being issues with the rules, either because I didn't understand parts of them or thought I did and proceeded to make a bunch of comments based on unknowingly playing the game incorrectly. I know that feedback probably isn't particularly enjoyable, but I always feel that I'd be disingenuous pretending that rules and component functionality issues weren't front and center when they surfaced.

Once you think you've got your rules sorted out get something like a Tascam DR-05 recorder, leave it near the table, give the game to a group that has never played it, and then go to the pub or something. Tell them not to worry about rules issues, because you'll have all that discussion recorded to review later. Let them discuss the game afterwards without you around and get that recorded. Then come back and discuss the game with them and ask the targeted questions you really want answered.
Last edit: 18 Apr 2016 19:25 by wadenels.
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18 Apr 2016 23:31 #226095 by engineer Al

mads b. wrote: Also I'm on the fence when it comes to making good looking prototypes. I know that you should always make a cheap and dirty prototype and test that for a long time, but then again part of a board game experience is usability and the components. And by making the game easy to use and by making it easy to grasp the story of the game, you also help your testers focus on the game rather than nitpicking about irrelevant stuff.


I agree with this. I always start with crude hand drawn pieces on cut up index cards, but once things have been written over and crossed out to the point of fine tuning, a nice prototype makes it a lot easier to play over and over and to grab playtesters.

My other piece of advice, which others may disagree with, is to work with a partner. Two people means you support eachother when things are frustrating, and push eachother to keep going where one person might just give up. Also it helps to be able to bang ideas together when trying to solve a problem.

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