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The Unquestionable Value of Popular IPs

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26 Apr 2016 21:22 - 26 Apr 2016 21:52 #226564 by Mr. White
Of course, we know that IPs with a lot of cultural currency are valuable, but looking at two active Kickstarter campaigns, we can see the numbers laid out.

In one corner we have what amounts to the nicest edition of a Blood Bowl base set to ever be released. All it's missing are the rules, but those are free online. Oh, it's also missing the official BB name... In all other categories this is better than any of the previous GW sets, and likely better than the upcoming one (if the GW preview minis are any indication). This is a high quality set of a game that has proven to have legs for about 25 years....yet with a week to go, it hasn't cracked $50,000...much less hit all of its stretch goals.
  • Proven game-play, but minus official license = $50,000
www.kickstarter.com/projects/irongolems/...all-pro-box/comments

In the other corner, a board game no one has played or can vouch the quality of, but based on the very popular video game Dark Souls. KS going nuts.
  • Untested game-play, but hot license = $2,000,000
www.kickstarter.com/projects/steamforged...ulstm-the-board-game

Again, the value of a strong IP printed on the box cover is nothing new. Simply interesting to see the disparity in the numbers out there thanks to the KS campaigns. Would that Pro Box sell more if it actually said 'Blood Bowl'? Likely. 2 million more? Doubtful.
Last edit: 26 Apr 2016 21:52 by Mr. White.
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26 Apr 2016 21:38 #226566 by Gary Sax
Yeah, something like Thunder Alley is another good example of this too. Proven game that tons of people liked, very clear what was in the package, etc. No dice because no license.

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26 Apr 2016 21:55 #226568 by Sevej
I wouldn't be so quick to point out that's the sole issue. I mean, Dreadball did score 700k without proven gameplay and without license. More important is the type of the game. Dungeon crawler is a very popular genre, while for me fantasy sport just doesn't do much. Also co-op dungeon crawl is still the holy grail of many people. That it has an excellent license is a multiplier for its attractiveness.

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26 Apr 2016 22:44 #226571 by hotseatgames
I think the general knowledge that a new official Bloodbowl is pending is also partly to blame. No one knows exactly what they have in store for that.

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27 Apr 2016 09:03 #226585 by charlest
I think you're oversimplifying and missing some things.

That Blood Bowl Kickstarter thing would require $160 (+ shipping?) for me to jump in and I get two teams. Almost no variety.

If I wanted to re-sell it, would I be able to recoup that? I have no idea, not sure. Big risk.


With Dark Souls, I'd be getting $200+MSRP for $130. It includes a ton of character options and tons of variety. It's not a starter set but a huge complete package.

If I don't like it I can almost assuredly re-sell it without loss. Even without exclusives.

With Kickstarter, you're taking a risk regardless (even on that BB KS), so you have to see the upside to push you over the ledge into backing.

Even Barnes backed Dark Souls and mentioned that if he bought it later it would cost him hundreds to get everything he'd get with a single pledge.

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27 Apr 2016 09:39 - 27 Apr 2016 09:39 #226590 by Columbob
Plus, I already HAVE a copy of Blood Bowl, as do many many people. This one does look ace though.
Last edit: 27 Apr 2016 09:39 by Columbob.

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27 Apr 2016 09:58 - 27 Apr 2016 10:01 #226593 by Michael Barnes
The number of people that have played and are familiar with Dark Souls over the past five years is likely exponentially higher than the number that have played/know about Blood Bowl over the past 30 years.

You are comparing a niche product for a niche hobby game to an essentially mainstream game with a widely known and respected brand.
Last edit: 27 Apr 2016 10:01 by Michael Barnes.
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27 Apr 2016 10:21 #226596 by Gary Sax
Isn't that his point about kickstarter?
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27 Apr 2016 10:57 - 27 Apr 2016 10:59 #226598 by Mr. White
Yes, the point is that here we have games with proven quality (BB and the mentioned Thunder Alley) that hardly move the needle, but an unproven game will move a significantly more number of units, simply because the name on the box.

Obviously why FFG is developing games in the Star Wars and 40K universe rather than dress the same games in their Twilight Imperium setting.

I'm just using the visibility of KS campaigns to underscore the point.

There's also a lot of speculating here as well which we know drives a lot of KS pledges. A high profile IP allows for better odds of after market sales.

To the lack of variety of a two team BB box....uh, no. I've been playing BB for over two decades and the two teams I'm using now...are the two from the starter box (orcs and humans). Playing in leagues, even if you restarted the same team in multiple seasons they will likely grow and regress in different directions giving them a unique identity each time. If you opt for tournament style play, the customization you have with assigning extra skills and what not allows you to field different looks and try new things. Hell, prior to any tourneys we _still_ have long conversations about builds...and these are teams that have been around forever. I've had far more variety and play from a BB starter than any dungeon crawler I've ever owned. Maybe anecdotal? But I don't think any one dungeoncrawler has had the legs or commitment that BB had from it's fans. While dead, the World Championships have continued to grow year after year. I don't see 900+ people getting together to play WHQ.
Last edit: 27 Apr 2016 10:59 by Mr. White.
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27 Apr 2016 11:11 #226599 by charlest
With lack of variety I mainly meant all I can do is one v one with the same teams. I can't run a league with a single purchase or setup my game group. Dark Souls will work for the entire group for much less money.

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27 Apr 2016 11:43 #226604 by bfkiller
I think sports games v dungeon crawlers is the more likely explanation.

Myth made over $900,000 and Shadows of Brimstone made over $1,300,000. Neither used an existing IP.
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27 Apr 2016 13:10 #226610 by Jexik
Sometimes it's not even the IP exactly, but the company's recognition and existing fan base.

People were hyped about Destiny because it was made by the guys that made Halo. And I'd like to think that a lot of the initial buzz for Halo was due to press guys loving Marathon.

Blizzard is so entrenched that it's hard for them to make a total flop. Their online games have insanely short wait times for matches because their fan base is so huge. I get frustrated when a Hearthstone game doesn't start within 1 minute. It sounds like it's similar for Heroes of the Storm and will be for Overwatch. Even if these games weren't the best games of their type, they benefit from network effects. I'm really curious to see what happens with Overwatch, because it's the first entirely new IP they've made since what, The Lost Vikings?

In board games, we see a similar effect with designers (or artists for something like Exploding Kittens). Codenames is excellent, but I'm sure that some of the initial "hey I should check that out" factor came from Vlaada Chvatil's name being on the box.

With Blood Bowl maybe it was made too well? If you've been debating how best to play the starter teams for thirty years, why do you need to get this new game?

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27 Apr 2016 14:42 - 27 Apr 2016 14:55 #226621 by Mr. White

Jexik wrote: If you've been debating how best to play the starter teams for thirty years, why do you need to get this new game?


Good question.

I _really_ also enjoy the hobby and fluff side of the game. Creating a team (modelling, painting, creating names, logo ideas, background) is a huge factor in the fun. Maybe it's the old RPGer in me. I already have a human team, but based on Bretonnia. This team I have other ideas for. I had a Dark Elf team, but wasn't satisfied with their paint job. After they had a horrible season I sold them off and this new DE team serves as a 'franchise rebranding'.

Also, these sculpts were designed very much in the style of the second edition aesthetic. That DE lineman giving the two fingers is fast becoming my favorite BB mini ever.

ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/005/951/754/766...bc811bf4df245412b17c
Last edit: 27 Apr 2016 14:55 by Mr. White.

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27 Apr 2016 15:06 #226622 by boothwah
I think that maybe this wasn't the best comparison, not really apples to apples - genres are different, scope, etc - But I will agree with the premise - When Decipher lost the license to Star Wars and the SWCCG died it had a huge installed base - A PC was formed and they are still reskinning and releasing errata and revamping the game - because it was a huge frigging mess at the end - There was a 70ish page errata/glossary/ruling book that was the play document by the end of it's published life. A real clusterfrack. That said the game was wildly popular and the folks liked the system so much that they are still playing it.

A few years later, Decipher commissioned art and released WARS. Same mechanics, but cleaned up completely - Everything that was elegant about the game was retained but all of the problems that had crept into the design were cleaned out. And it was very draftable - something that SWCCG was never really able to pull off - limited play - It was great. But it died, died, died. Despite it being a vastly superior product, Generic Asian Space Dudes and Alien Psionic Jedi's couldn't compete with playing a broken game with Han Solo and Chewbacca.

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