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One more place racist garbage is no longer welcome

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14 Feb 2013 00:47 - 14 Feb 2013 01:00 #144162 by Schweig!

Green Lantern wrote: We seem to want to hide lessons from our children instead of educating them about it. Instead of explaining to someone what the true meaning behind the Confederate flag really is [...]

Fine by me, but the Confederacy was first and foremost founded as a means to uphold the institution of slavery. All the other romanticised interpretations of the flag, like Southern pride, rebel spirit, etc. are just bullshit that was invented during the Reconstruction era by revisionists of history. If you believe in any of that, then I am sorry, but you have been brainwashed. The Confederate flag is alone by its *original* meaning offensive not just to those who suffered under it but to anyone who would have at the time been considered a slave.
Last edit: 14 Feb 2013 01:00 by Schweig!.

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14 Feb 2013 01:16 #144164 by Nagajur

The Expanding Man wrote: This is a question that I can't find answered. I'm genuinely curious, not trolling.

How does modern America explain the hypocrisy of it's founding fathers promoting freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all while at the same time, owning slaves and promoting slavery?


I believe the general idea was that they negotiated slavery as acceptable under the assumption that they would be able to end it once the country was intact. It's not like it was a group of guys that all had the same ideals. Had those opposed to slavery known it would go on for another century, it's possible they would have never signed.

It is honestly a sad state of affairs, but we are certainly reaping what we sowed with respect to the trickle down effect of present crime and the poverty state which costs billions every year. It's not like our hands are clean.

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14 Feb 2013 06:31 #144181 by scissors
Well pete got the gun makers right...but it's the CzechRepublic and Slovakia that peacefully divorced 20 years ago...
though between 1918 - 38 there was also Subcarpathian Rus.

Within the Czech Republic itself you have distinction between Bohemia, Moravia, and part of Silesia.

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14 Feb 2013 08:37 #144183 by ThirstyMan
What's the difference between serfdom (as practiced in Tsarist Russia) and slavery apart from importing the slaves?

I'm not sure I can see a difference....

With regard to opinions on life in soviet states we will just have to agree that it was pretty subjective and rather depends on what you did (socially and politically). My family does disagree with your point of view and no, they didn't lose their jobs after 1991. They have noticed, as have many, a massive rise in crime/drug abuse etc etc and they kind of blame that on the changes as well as the lack of 'community spirit' for want of a better phrase. Everyone just looks out for themselves now....mind you, this a constant criticism in the UK as well.

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14 Feb 2013 10:30 - 14 Feb 2013 11:36 #144185 by Schweig!

ThirstyMan wrote: What's the difference between serfdom (as practiced in Tsarist Russia) and slavery apart from importing the slaves?

Serfdom under feudal regimes meant that you worked on land owned by some lord, prince or somesuch. You practically owned nothing, had to give away pretty much everything you earned that you didn't need for your survival (and sometimes even more than that), but other than that you had a few rights and weren't completely subject to the lord's arbitrary will. The main difference was that serfs couldn't be traded like wares, although apart from all that serfdom and slavery was pretty much the same. Both is illegal nowadays by international law by the way, but those fucking neo-cons always find a way around that.
Last edit: 14 Feb 2013 11:36 by Schweig!.

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14 Feb 2013 13:50 #144188 by wice

ThirstyMan wrote: What's the difference between serfdom (as practiced in Tsarist Russia) and slavery apart from importing the slaves?

I'm not sure I can see a difference....

With regard to opinions on life in soviet states we will just have to agree that it was pretty subjective and rather depends on what you did (socially and politically). My family does disagree with your point of view and no, they didn't lose their jobs after 1991. They have noticed, as have many, a massive rise in crime/drug abuse etc etc and they kind of blame that on the changes as well as the lack of 'community spirit' for want of a better phrase. Everyone just looks out for themselves now....mind you, this a constant criticism in the UK as well.

What I said is not really a matter of opinion, there's plenty of evidence for all of it (documents, testimonies, etc).

I didn't say that everyone who's nostalgic for the communist times lost his/her job or something like that, it's just mostly those people. I know there's a popular sentiment around here that "say anything about the communists, but at least they knew how to keep things in order" or "these politicians can do nothing but argue".

The thing is, as I said, that the communist regimes were very keen on pretending that everything was fine. Yes, there was a rise in crime since 1990, or, more precisely, a perception of rise. First of all, there was this whole "there's no unemployment in socialism/communism" thing, so there was a big number of people who had facade jobs, that were lost after the fall of the regimes, which obviously contributed to a rise in crime. The rise in drug abuse is simply the result of more open borders. And secondly, crimes in general were seriously under-reported in communist states, simply to maintain the facade of order. For example, if you walk the streets of Budapest today, you can see homeless beggars everywhere, something you would have never seen under the communists. Why? Because back then, if you decided to sit on the pavement and ask people for money, the police immediately picked you up and threw you in jail. As for drug abuse: yes, it was pretty hard to find weed, cocaine, heroin, or anything like that. So people were sniffing glue. Or showed up drunk on cheap liqueur for work in the morning (which didn't really matter, since they did nothing important at their workplace). Again, this was seriously under-reported.

Having said that: I'm torn on the question of banning the hammer-and-sickle or the red star. After all, it's perfectly possible to wear those symbols while simply being a naive idealist who's just really concerned for the poor. On the other hand, anyone who wears a swastika (and is not of Indian descent, or a British punk in 1976) necessarily subscribes to a list of very inhuman ideas.

I believe that the right to free speech trumps the right to not be offended (so much so I don't even think there's such a right), but there's a good number of kinds of speech that is not protected by freedom of speech. One of them is harassment. I'm sure that no-one could get away too long with running around screaming "all Jews should be gassed". Wearing a swastika means basically the same thing. And, although I'm not well-versed about the situation in the USA, but to me it seems very likely that wearing a Southern flag is basically a substitute for calling every black person "nigger".

And, just for the record (because I didn't see anyone here saying otherwise), the staff of BGG has every right to moderate any kind of expression on their forums. It's not a "freedom of speech" issue, since "freedom of speech" only protects people from being punished by the state for speaking their minds. It doesn't mean that everyone must provide a forum for everyone else to say anything they want.

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14 Feb 2013 14:50 - 14 Feb 2013 15:03 #144192 by ThirstyMan
I understand your idea of 'perception of crime' however, this is not what is happening.

Crime is now affecting normal people in the streets which it did not prior to 1991. As you say, much petty crime was cleared up so, in that sense, it simply didn't exist. Now, assholes in limos try to pick up women in broad daylight on the streets with impunity because they have money. This simply did not happen pre 1991 (well, I guess it did, but not at the frequency it does now) I have seen this happen many times outside the goddamn supermarket, once to my wife who had to fight these idiots with police looking on. House breaking is on the rise as is street mugging. Sorry, this isn't a perception, it is a reality. I am also quite sure the situation is different in the different satellite states. They are not all the same and they have had different experiences. I speak of the Ukraine.

Ordinary people are fed up with the racist/nazi assholes who have zero respect for war dead etc. In the Ukraine, the war is still a big thing for everyone and not just communist sympathisers. The patriotism went far deeper than mere communist sympathies. This is why the situation is very complex and not black and white at all. The war is still very important to Russia and the Ukraine and Belarus. This is probably why the Hammer and Sickle remains a sobering war symbol in the Ukraine. The flag does not always mean 'the party' for folk in the Ukraine and Russia.
Last edit: 14 Feb 2013 15:03 by ThirstyMan.

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14 Feb 2013 15:08 #144194 by SuperflyPete
I wonder how much the Egyptians are missing Sadat and Mubarak now...it's not like it was there anymore from a public safety standpoint.

The byproduct of revolutions against dictatorial regimes is the short term chaos and long term "learning how to run a country" thing.

Not as simple as it looks.
The following user(s) said Thank You: wice

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14 Feb 2013 15:54 #144201 by wice
I'm not saying that the rise in crime is merely an illusion. But I think the extent of the rise is probably less than how ordinary people perceive it, especially if you consider the crimes against human rights committed by the Party. Of course, it may differ from country to country. Also, neither dictatorship (what the communist regimes basically were) nor democracy is surefire recipe against incompetent or malevolent government. But at least in democracy you have a chance to get rid of the incompetent or malevolent leaders every four-or-so years.

I understand that for many the hammer-and-sickle means a nostalgic feeling of security. But for just as many it's the symbol of fear and the total lack of freedom, and rightfully so.

BTW, as far as I know, Ukraine is one of the countries that basically jumped out of the frying pan right into the fire. The last decade, just like Russia, it started to become a democracy and a free country in name only.

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