Kickstarter and pricing

I've been wondering about something concerning Kickstarter. Recently I saw Cthulhu Wars get funded withing hours after launch, which is quite impressive considering it's a game that costs around 130 bucks (more or less depending on early bird offer and whatnot). But how come that so many KS games cost more or less the same as they would in retail? I mean, you cut out the middle man, you get your money up front, and you even know that every single copy you make is sold already so how come you don't pass on the benefit to the customer? This is especially weird considering that many KS games are also produced for retail at - I suppose - the same time. I know that individual shipping is a big cost, but still.

I'm not really complaining, I'm just wondering. Why not offer a KS game at a truly competitive price? Or why not lower the price if a certain threshold is met. So rather than a stretch goal which unlocks more shit in the box, why not a stretch goal that effectively lowers the price with a certain amount? Is it because KS can't handle it or what?

Well, the price is what people are willing to pay. And they are. The biggest KS are those with $100+ sweet spot. I doubt with cheaper price they'll manage to get that much money. Even then some are still struggling to break even no thanks to the highly expected freebies.

Oh, fuck me, WHY did you mention Cthulhu Wars? I've been trying to wean myself from KS (and untried games in general), successfully resisted that Study in Emerald game, and now THIS?

A company producing a boardgame for a retail market will need to have or develop some expertise at:

game design
writing
editing
project management
marketing
distribution
accounting

Some random dude on Kickstarter will need the same skills, but is less likely to have them all. And probably already has a full-time day job. He can still do his Kickstarter, but probably less efficiently than a professional operation. So he is less likely to have any savings to pass on to the consumers.

mads b. wrote: But how come that so many KS games cost more or less the same as they would in retail?

I imagine it's similar to why digitally distributed video games are the same price as retail stores. A) Because they can, and people will pay it, and standard retail and distribution channels will refuse to carry the product because they can't compete.

mads b. wrote: Why not offer a KS game at a truly competitive price? Or why not lower the price if a certain threshold is met. So rather than a stretch goal which unlocks more shit in the box, why not a stretch goal that effectively lowers the price with a certain amount?

Well if the price drops at a certain point, what do people get for the now extra money they pledged?

jason10mm wrote: Oh, fuck me, WHY did you mention Cthulhu Wars? I've been trying to wean myself from KS (and untried games in general), successfully resisted that Study in Emerald game, and now THIS?

I've been following the progress of this game for a while, and have been really interested in it. But when I saw the $170 MSRP, I ran away screaming.

Yeah, looking at it I'm getting less and less excited. The minis look bad ass, but the pricing, WTF? Going from $110 up to $150 in progressive increments for the same thing? FUCK THAT! That is just bullshit on a galactic scale and can't be encouraged. How do they expect to sell this thing at retail?

I'm sure ill be backing at $240.....why am I cursed with deep pockets and no willpower?

That whole KS is bullshit if you ask me. The pricing is "optimistic" in that the folks that set it felt fairly sure they could get people to bend over for it. I think it's _outrageous_. There is NO WAY IN HELL that game, regardless of what's in it, would retail for $169, because nobody would ever walk into a store and buy it for $169. Regardless of how cool it looks (which it really doesn't look any cooler than Chaos in the Old World), it still appears to be another DoaM game and yet another Lovecraft game.

Parcelling out the purchases means that really, this is a product line, not a board game. Take a look. If you want to get the "full game" including the 13 expansions, it's not $169. I'm going to be charitable and NOT include the 19 Great Old One miniatures that are $20 a piece (so that's $380 right there for the set and "more to come"), but to buy this entire game you're looking at:

$169 base game
$25 plastic gate miniatures
$25 first player marker (ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?)
$12 custom dice
$48 Opener of the Way Expansion
$48 Sleeper Expansion
$48 Windwalker Expansion
$48 Azathoth Expansion
$40 Primeval Map Expansion
$48 Yuggoth Map Expansion


$511. Can't resist, but with the big GOO minis, this game is just under $900. And there are more $50 expansions forthcoming. You back this, don't you EVER fucking complain about CCGs, $100 price points, monthly LCG packs,expansion-itis, or anything to do with pricing or distribution in board games ever again. Far be it for me to impinge on your right to spend your money how you choose, but I've got a right to heckle you and make fun of you if you make such a foolish purchase.

This is pretty extreme, and after hearing countless people hemming and hawing over buying a god damned $20 card game at my shop or at gaming events because it has a 7 rating on BGG or hearing for YEARS people saying "I'll wait for the review/to play a friend's copy/a sale" rather than buying games...it blows my mind that this Kickstarter thing has weakened people's common sense to the point that they'll back an _unplayed_ product like this. So what if it's Sandy Petersen. I wouldn't buy an EON game based on pictures and a description for $500.

It's really too bad that gamers wouldn't spend $50 on a board game at any given defunct FLGS because they wanted to save $10...but now they'll blow millions on Kickstarter shit.

I'm sorry that I looked at that Cthulhu Wars kickstarter. I was expecting to see another lame half-baked design that would separate gullible rubes from their money with nothing more than nice miniatures. And that still might be a fair description of Cthulhu Wars. But Sandy Peterson is on a very short list of names that might be able to sell this idea to me. And those are some very fine-looking components. Sandy Peterson is the creator of the Call of Cthulhu role-playing game, and he gave the green light to the original Arkham Horror back in the late '80s, at a time when a $50 boardgame was considered to be outrageously expensive.

Even so, I don't think that I can back Cthulhu Wars. I would love to own it, but it's too damn expensive and essentially looks like a very pretty cross between Chaos in the Old World and the Black Ops edition of Risk, only with less innovative gameplay. If I'm really in the mood to play a mythos-themed DoaM game, I've already got Cults Across America. CAA is homely in comparison to Cthulhu Wars, but I know that Cults Across America is reasonably funny and fun. I don't know enough about Cthulhu Wars to trust that price tag.

I was very interested in Cthulhu Wars as well, but with shipping and possible VATs there's just no reason to kickstart it rather than buy it from a retailer - even with the discount. And that's what I meant with this post: why not give people a real incentive to buy direct rather than via retailer later? I know it's supply and demand and all that jazz, but it still feels strange.

And about lowering the price. Say I need 100 bucks for my KS project and a game is 10 bucks. Then, if at one time 20 people sign up why couldn't I just charge their cards for 8 dollars which would still be above my goal? I guess it's because people would rather have more stuff in the box, but I could see the other thing work. Don't know if it's worth the hazzle or even allowed by KS, though.

Just curious, to the guys who are interested in it: CitOW seems very similar to this with very good components and proven gameplay, with the fraction of the price. So why this?

You're looking to put rational parameters on irrational behavior. The same thing happened with eBay 20 years ago. Now eBay is the flea market you go to when there's no reputable seller on Amazon offering what you're looking for.

That's where Kickstarter will be ten years from now. In the meantime let stupid people do stupid things, and anything useful that comes out the far end will be available to you in the aftermarket. Seriously, Kickstarter is an IQ test right now.

S.

mads b. wrote: Say I need 100 bucks for my KS project and a game is 10 bucks. Then, if at one time 20 people sign up why couldn't I just charge their cards for 8 dollars which would still be above my goal?

KS charges the cards, not you. They then transfer the money to you (minus their cut, of course). So you couldn't do this.

Also, you're not allowed to change the tiers once you've set them.

Mads, in theory, you could still do that by setting up your own website and your own personal equivalent to Kickstarter. Of course, without the Kickstarter name and site, you would probably get few people to go for it.

There really is a bit of lunacy to this Kickstarter business at this stage. An established company like Steve Jackson Games shouldn't need Kickstarter to finance a big fancy Ogre reprint. They should be able to implement the same kind of Kickstarter deal on their own website, complete with arbitrary deadlines, incentives and promos. And yet I'm willing to bet that approach wouldn't have raked anywhere near as much money as their Ogre Kickstarter did.

Shellhead wrote: And yet I'm willing to bet that approach wouldn't have raked anywhere near as much money as their Ogre Kickstarter did.

The understatement of the century, since there are competitors to Kickstarter that charge much lower fees and don't get business because they aren't THE site to set up a preorder. IndiGoGo doesn't get half the press that Kickstarter does.

S.

I had a bit of an epiphany about Cthulhu Wars and their pricing structure. Clearly they know they will end up in the 1+ mill range, any big miniature KS seems to be hitting that range. Look at the Bones and Myth ones, by the end of the KS the stretch goals have added a ton of minis to what was originally the "base game" at roughly retail price. CW doesn't want to do this. They know they will be adding a ton of minis as "free" stretch goals so they artificially inflated the initial price (beyond those more reasonable "Early bird" specials needed to get early momentum) knowing that after a few weeks the $240 CDG tier will be much more reasonable once all the stretch goals have added unique sculpts and probably a few of the cheaper map based expansions thrown in. It is the natural evolution of minis based KS. The model count guys just look at the weight of plastic and the price per mini, the ODC "gotta have 'em all" guys try to see how much they can grab with just a single swoop, etc etc. Plus you have the 30 day rush of enthusiasm, the lure of KS only components, the intoxicating nature of the debates in the comments section generating consumer buy-in, fetishizing of stretch goals, all a heady brew of "why not?" marketing designed to part the fools from their money.

I fully expect a "mea culpa" to come in the form of a version of CW without all that plastic, priced at a level the real gaming market can actually tolerate. No fracking way a $170 game hits retail. They will keep a few of the GOOs and replace everything else with a counter or stand-up toon just to get the price to $80 where this game has a chance at longevity.

Grrr, this stuff really bugs me. But I know I'll be jumping in once a few more expansions are added to the CDG level. I am weak I clearly need another kid because the infant I have has not cured me of buying fantastically cool looking games that will never see the light of day (reference last month and Robotech).