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Kickstarter: A Cautionary Tale (Doom/Atlantic City)

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24 Jul 2013 16:34 #157063 by SuperflyPete
www.kickstarter.com/projects/forkingpath...ame-to-atlantic-city

The last update kind of tells you the sad tale, but this guy took 125K in KS money, plus preorders from the website, and fled the country. Maybe fled is a little strong. But left.

The reason I am SURE this was a scam is that THIS IS A MONOPOLY GAME. I mean, how fucking hard is it to make a monopoly knockoff?
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24 Jul 2013 17:11 #157064 by bfkiller
This is the first I've heard of this game, and maybe I'm just naive, but that update comes off as sincere to me: not a scam artist, but a completely incompetent businessman. If it was a con and the guy left the country, why I even bother posting an update? Just let the suckers twist in the wind and wonder.

But whether it was a con or an incompetent cluster fuck, it's still an excellent cautionary tale for crowdfunding. Can you believe someone backed that project for $2,500?!

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24 Jul 2013 17:17 #157065 by SuperflyPete
He used money to move to Poland, which means the money was misappropriated (remember, he quit his job for this project) and I can imagine the reason for the posting is to appease some people with a sad, sad story (the kindhearted) and buy time on those who might wish to sue. Harder/more expensive to sue someone in another country in a class action.

Or, maybe it's not a scam and the guy just got in over his head. I can't see how.

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24 Jul 2013 17:37 #157067 by hotseatgames
He "moved back to Portland", not Poland. Close enough though, maybe. ;)
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24 Jul 2013 17:43 #157068 by bioball
This cropped up in the comments:

Mightyrabbitlogo.small
Mighty Rabbit Studios about 1 hour ago

Erik, I want to make it very clear that I have absolutely nothing against you as a person. You're still one of the coolest guys I've worked with, and I standby my assessment that you're a killer salesman (and the success of your fundraising efforts proves that much) - but I believe your backers have a right to know that this isn't the first time this has happened.

Erik was a part of Joystick Labs - an independent game development incubator in Durham, NC - which formed five companies (mine included). Erik formed a company called Inari, Inc. and got $20,000 in seed funding to build a social pinball game. By the end of six months, the money was gone and there was nothing to show for it. Erik's investors for Inari got completely burned. From what we saw, most of the money went towards buying stuff on Amazon.

I backed this project with the hopes that Joystick Labs was just a learning experience, getting a board game printed seemed substantially easier than getting a video game made. I'm guessing that was a false assumption. Thankfully, I only backed at the T-Shirt level - I'm fine writing off a $25 loss. I really feel bad for the hundreds of backers who pledged $75 or more. I really hope you can get their money back, Erik.


Bold is mine.
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24 Jul 2013 17:51 #157069 by Michael Barnes
"I am so shocked that this happened to a Kickstarter board game project", Michael Barnes never said.

Maybe this will be the high-profile blunder/swindle that gets people to think twice about throwing their money after all of these "projects". I hope it is, I'm ready for this bubble to burst.

It's hard to say if it's an outright scam or not because the guy seems to be stating that he got in over his head, had no idea how to get board games made, and so on...but there's also this past occurence where he used investor money to buy a bunch of personal stuff from Amazon. So he's got a history of squandering stakeholder money.

Of course, you're not a stakeholder at Kickstarter...you're a "backer".

It's really, really pathetic to see these people asking questions like "well, can we at least get the T-shirt/miniatures/artwork?" Seriously, this man ripped you the fuck off (whether he intended to or not) and you're worried about if you're going to get a T-shirt? Then there's the folks "I'm just sad I won't get to play this game". Really? You're not sad that you're a FUCKING SUCKER and this man has stolen your money?

I had someone ask me this week if I'd review/preview a Kickstarter game and I told them flatly that I do not and will not review any product that isn't in production and available at retail, barring long out of print titles available in the aftermarket. Shit like this is why. Chick wrote this game up last year at Quarter to Three and probably got folks interested...now he's out the money like they are.

Fuck Kickstarter. Worst thing to happen to board games in a long, long time. Maybe ever.
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24 Jul 2013 18:08 #157070 by Gary Sax

Michael Barnes wrote: I had someone ask me this week if I'd review/preview a Kickstarter game and I told them flatly that I do not and will not review any product that isn't in production and available at retail, barring long out of print titles available in the aftermarket. Shit like this is why. Chick wrote this game up last year at Quarter to Three and probably got folks interested...now he's out the money like they are.


Yeah, that's a sticky situation (Chick recommendation, eventual burning)...

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24 Jul 2013 18:09 #157071 by Ken B.
Yeah, I'm definitely over Kickstarter as well. I'm glad it gets some games made that wouldn't otherwise, but a lot of the stuff I see is just...not fully cooked, y'know?

I get a lot of solicitations to do "previews" for Kickstarter stuff. I just don't do 'em. I made an exception a couple of times, like for the latest BattleCON, because I knew from the first release that it was an awesome system and worth the support. But...I mean, how in the heck do you do justice to a review of a tossed together preview copy with not-quite-finished rules and subpar components? I have no idea what to do with that.

A lot of companies or designers who use Game Salute have shifted to this too, which is unfortunate. They no longer want you to review a finished product (the purpose, I thought, of a reviewer to begin with) they want to "loan" you a cobbled-together preview copy and hype the thing so they can drum up pre-purchase interest.

Unless you're getting actually paid for that sort of thing (*cough cough*) then I don't understand why companies think that reviewers should be extended pre-purchase hype machines. A lot of that is fueled by the Kickstarter "Limited time! Buy it now! BUY IT NOW!" routine.

I'm just surprised it took this long for the open con-men to come out of the woodwork. This is nothing more than a glorified, 'say man, my car ran out of gas up the road, can you give me $20?'

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24 Jul 2013 18:10 #157072 by Shellhead
I think it will take a bigger failure at Kickstarter to really turn people against the site. For example, if Cthulhu Wars fails, that would be 4,000+ people getting collectively screwed out of $1.4 million dollars. The small-scale failure of The Doom That Came to Atlantic City is unlikely to have much overall impact for Kickstarter.

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24 Jul 2013 18:12 #157073 by MattFantastic

Michael Barnes wrote: Fuck Kickstarter. Worst thing to happen to board games in a long, long time. Maybe ever.


Tell us how you really feel!

PS: Maybe The Fort might want to reconsider the fact that it's covered in KS ads? I don't really give a shit cause of my involvement and history here, but speaking purely from my position as a paying advertiser here now, it's certainly a kick in the dick to have you venomously shit all over something that's helping to keep the server fires lit. If I didn't already love this place I sure as shit wouldn't want to spend my money here.

Bad review... whatever. Discussions of the bad side of crowdfunding and its effect on the hobby... great. But outright across the board dismissal and all kinds of shitty accusations about anyone who uses KS is a pretty different beast.

Plus you look like a fucking hypocrite cause whether you or anyone else likes it, Michael Barnes is, at the very least one of, the major public faces of FAT so you'll talk all the shit you want but still take the payout when the ad men roll up. So fuck Kickstarter and all the people who use it... now who wants to pay me to advertise their Kickstarter campaign!?
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24 Jul 2013 18:19 #157075 by Erik Twice
This is all amateur stuff. There's a woman guilty of stealing over a million dollars asking for money so she can pay her restitution.

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24 Jul 2013 18:21 - 24 Jul 2013 18:21 #157076 by Ken B.
Well, I guess I should follow with my disclaimer that several good games have come out of Kickstarter, including D-Day Dice, Alien Frontiers, and several others. Like any game purchase, you need to evaluate carefully before taking the plunge.

I think the criticism is more on the culture that Kickstarter has led to--and that's people throwing money blindly at projects both near and far, out of fear of "missing out" on exclusives or limited releases. That's great when someone delivers, like Zombicide (I'm not a fan, but there's no denying that game has tons of happy customers and they've been delivering stuff by the shitload to those same hungry customers.) It's not so great when someone abuses the system and puts out something half-baked or worse, gallops off with people's cash.
Last edit: 24 Jul 2013 18:21 by Ken B..

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24 Jul 2013 18:38 #157077 by Bullwinkle

MattLoter wrote: Plus you look like a fucking hypocrite cause whether you or anyone else likes it, Michael Barnes is, at the very least one of, the major public faces of FAT so you'll talk all the shit you want but still take the payout when the ad men roll up. So fuck Kickstarter and all the people who use it... now who wants to pay me to advertise their Kickstarter campaign!?

You've got this exactly backwards. There's been a lot of criticism of board and video game magazines and websites--some justified, some likely not--about how taking ad money leaves writers and editors beholden to those companies to give better reviews than otherwise, or avoid bad press altogether. Frankly, the willingness of prominent F:AT members to criticize something that helps pay the bills is the exact opposite of hypocrisy, and something that should be praised, not scolded.
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24 Jul 2013 18:41 #157079 by Schweig!
I have to agree with Matt here; the criticism of Kickstarter has been around since the first board game was launched on Kickstarter and that's all fine and well, but the tone in this thread particularly got a bit too nasty and a bit too "I told you so".

I also wonder when exactly Poland overtook the Caribbean on the list of top countries to move to with a briefcase full of defrauded money.

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24 Jul 2013 18:44 - 24 Jul 2013 18:47 #157080 by Michael Barnes
Where is this payout money, Matt? I've never seen a single dime for anything I've ever done here. I've also never once solicited any Kickstarter project for advertising dollars, the only times I've ever gone out and offered ad space to advertisers was when it was a product that I would personally endorse. I do not dictate or control the advertising policies here, and as long as these Kickstarter projects follow the rules and don't do silly shit like front page blog posts, that's fine. That doesn't bother me one bit because that's the professional way to do it.

But I'm also not going to muzzle what I think about it because we're taking in ad dollars (probably more like cents) to keep the server running or whatever, you know better than that. Certainly the fact that you're supporting Kickstarter has at least some small part to do with your own project, which I've said (and will not say) absolutely nothing negative about and wish you the best of luck with.

Folks can make whatever decision they want about Kickstarter, there's plenty of good arguments for it here and elsewhere and nobody is relying on me to define their position on it. You of all people should be appreciative of differing viewpoints, positions, and attitudes about things and people's ability to decide for themselves. If you think I'm going to play nice about something that yes, I think is a negative trend in hobby gaming then you're dead wrong. I didn't get to where I am in games writing by NOT speaking out about things I don't agree with or support.

I'm reviewing a retail-available Kickstarter title tomorrow because you know what? It's almost fucking IMPOSSIBLE to not cover Kickstarter games anymore. And the #1 complaint I have about this game, which is probably the best Kickstarter game I've ever played, is that it has "backer" bonuses that keep much-needed content out of the hands of retail customers. And it also has that Kickstarter taint of underdevelopment.

Kickstarter has been around long enough and I've seen enough Kickstarter games to see trends, and those trends are uniformly negative. This whole idea of "publishing games that would otherwise never have gotten made" is revealing itself more and more to be "publishing games that NEVER SHOULD HAVE or NEVER NEEDED to get made".

And I'll say it again...where were all of these "backers" for any number of deserving games, designers, publishers, and retailers for all of these years when the hobby industry was continually losing money across the board, top to bottom?

Oh, that's right. They didn't have gimmicky "stretch goal" campaigns,exclusive paywalled content, titty miniatures, and potentially empty promises to lure people out of their money.
Last edit: 24 Jul 2013 18:47 by Michael Barnes.
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