Warped Boards!

What is the f-ing problem?

Yeah I understand that despite the fact that Milton Bradley and Parker Brothers had unlocked the code to making board game boards that don't warp almost 100 years ago, modern publishers for reasons of economics insist that their boards be made in the swamp lands of China by child slaves. That's not my problem. My problem is why do we, as gamers, put up with it?

By and large, if we, as gamers, get a game with a defective part we are in contact with customer service in a flash and woe to the company that doesn't respond immediately and comprehensively to the complaint. Yet, time after time we get games with boards that bow and twist and we say nothing. From the worst example of warping I've ever seen in Game of Thrones 2nd ed. to the latest in Galaxy Defenders we seem to think it's an unavoidable part of our hobby.

Now I know non warping boards can be made. GMT makes them consistently. So is it just that people are willing to pay more for extraneous minis but not a good board? Does that seem right to you?

You sound pretty bent out of shape about this.

I have never, in all my years of gaming, witnessed a game manufactured in Germany (all of Europe, really) or the US that had warped boards. Just sayin'.

It really does have to do with Chinese production and quality control. Who knows what kind of horrid chemicals and industrial by-products all of these made-in-China games are soaked with. We may never know.

I am a staunch opponent of games manufacturing in China, but it is also one of those kinds of things that you either grin and bear it or you don't ever buy new games. It's shameful that so much production of fucking PRINTED CARDBOARD has moved over there. I would gladly accept fewer plastic gumball machine toys in exchange for Made in the USA at the same price point.

The worst example still remains Duel in the Dark. Will we ever know what was on those boards when they arrived in the US? Mold, ammonia, who knows.

The worst example of board warping recently that I've seen was Rampage. I actually went to customer service on that. The boards were like really shallow half-pipes, which made the game almost unplayable what with it being a carrom thing and all. On top of that, the counter sheets were miscut, which also affected gameplay. To Asmodee's credit, they replaced almost the entire game apart from the wood for me.

my Valley Games edition of Hannibal R v C warped at one point so that the jigsaw pieces didn't fit. Then one day it magically unwarped. Not really the same as buying a warped game though. I agree that AGOT 2nd edition is the worst, though the copy i once owned (now owned by my gaming group) has flattened out over time. It hadn't occurred to me until you mentioned it that none of GMT games have this problem.

You are in a small minority Mr. Barnes. Most buyers couldn't give a damn where the game is made but get pissy about cardboard pieces, even when they're gorgeous. I got shouted down pretty damn hard when I recommended paper maps instead of cardboard for Thunder Alley. Likely doubled the price of the game.

Publicly traded companies have a "fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders" to produce games as cheaply as possible. I'll be curious to see the production quality of Fantasy Flight Games products now that my 401k expects them to make a 100% RoI on each unit.

S.

Yeah, I pretty much try to not buy games made in China and made in the USA goes a long way with me. I can count the number of made in China games I own on one hand. Unfortunately, three of those (Condottiere, Citadels, and Manoeuvre) are forever shelf games.

Sometimes GMT's games are printed in the US, sometimes China. Worthington used to be US, but their latest game on kickstarter is from China (I asked about this, as it added to the deterrent of me giving it a shot). MMP is US as far as I know. Columbia is US/Canada. Mayfair is US which is good because I like a lot of their games.

FFG and DoW seem to originally be Germany, but now China. FFG for a long while. When I'm interested in one of their offerings (not often), I'll usually look for the non China edition. With FFG, that usually means an older game.

I like to think I'm not such a slave to the hobby that I'll buy anything regardless of where it was made, and I too, would rather pay more or have less bells and whistles and support manufacturing here. Like I said above though, I do have a scant few from China, so like most ideas of the hobby, I haven't totally committed to it yet.

Trying though.

Chinese Factory is an economic strategy game. The players are, ironically, board game publishers trying to get games into gamers’ eager hands. To do so, each has a factory full of Chinese workers he can use to produce his games. One must decide how little to pay them, how many hours to squeeze production out of them, and how many severed hands and paint fume comas are acceptable before the bottom line becomes threatened.

There are also issues on the other side. Even though you’re running things as bare-bones as possible, the customers on the other side of the world will demand only the highest quality. If one of your sleep-deprived workers omits even a single wooden cube from a box, an angry gamer is ready to go rabid about it on an Internet forum somewhere, and your company’s reputation may be shot. In addition, you want to make sure your final product is cheap enough that the fans won’t complain, while still allowing your distributors a nice Salisbury Steak TV dinner every now and then. It’s a tricky balancing act.

Chinese Factory is set to release this fall (hopefully in time for Essen) from Big River Games. Retail price is yet to be determined, as we’re still waiting to hear from Jiao’s next of kin.

MMP is still indicating Made in USA or not made at all. GMT used to be all in USA printing but surrendered to the price differential in China. It was discussed in a FATcast a couple of years back with one of their top guys.

I'll be honest -- I'm surprised there's that big a price differential for a game made solely out of cardboard like GMT games are, but there it is. It's cheaper to ship each game box across the ocean than it is to produce it locally. Granted, shipping from China via container ship burning bunker fuel may be cheaper than shipping from Mississippi via rail burning diesel.

The real question is what do American and German printers know that Chinese printers don't that we can have a better level of quality for the same product. You can't tell me it's an issue with the labor, it must be materials or process. I appreciate the Chinese are looking to cut corners to save on cost, but they make iPhones for peanuts for chrissake and those are way more complicated and materials-dependent. People seem to really like them too. What is it about a simple piece of cardboard that's so challenging?

What's sobering up U.S. game companies right now is that labor unrest at Long Beach is leaving their Chinese-printed Christmas inventory anchored offshore in early December.

Everyone talks about wanting quality, until they see the picture of the 400 minis on the web page. Given that much of the buy/no-buy decision is made prior to copies even existing I suppose that's par for the course.

S.

The American consumer has signalled that they are comfortable with the quality and ethical compromises that they make when buying Chinese products. Simple as that.

Actually, now most true low cost manufacturing is moving to Vietnam or Southeast Asia, because Chinese wages are now too high after a decade of economic growth.

Cost is a huge factor but one thing people don't often talk about in this discussion is the avilable options. There are not many U.S. printers that specialize in board games, most printers you find here make their bread and butter printing other media (unsurprisingly). With a company like Panda GM or Wingo dedicated completely to board games they have specialty equipment and items which allow for a lot more options.

Simple example - Cave Evil was printed between like 4 or 5 different U.S. manufacturers I believe. If you look in the Revised rulebook it lists several of them and what components were printed where. That game could have been made in China in one shop for probably $10-$12 a unit.

A U.S. printer isn't going to offer many different card sizes/box sizes, plastic component options etc.

charlest wrote: A U.S. printer isn't going to offer many different card sizes/box sizes, plastic component options etc.

So where do GMT and MMP print their U.S. games? Anybody know?

Definitely, there is strong path dependency for any industry that has reasonable human and durable capital requirements.

I think Mayfair still does all their production in the states. Same with Decision Games I believe.

Sagrilarus wrote:

charlest wrote: A U.S. printer isn't going to offer many different card sizes/box sizes, plastic component options etc.

So where do GMT and MMP print their U.S. games? Anybody know?

And they have mounted/paper maps and standard sized cards along with solid but unspectacular chits.

They don't have any plastic parts, they don't have small/mini sized cards, they don't have oversized cards or player aids, and they don't have tiles/boards/cardboard cut in odd or varying shapes.

Something as simple as needing poker chips in your game will be difficult to do with a U.S. printer unless you want to source out components to different factories/outlets and then assemble yourself - which isn't do-able for most people wanting to sell 2,000+ copies of a game.

charlest wrote:

Sagrilarus wrote:

charlest wrote: A U.S. printer isn't going to offer many different card sizes/box sizes, plastic component options etc.

So where do GMT and MMP print their U.S. games? Anybody know?

And they have mounted/paper maps and standard sized cards along with solid but unspectacular chits.

They don't have any plastic parts, they don't have small/mini sized cards, they don't have oversized cards or player aids, and they don't have tiles/boards/cardboard cut in odd or varying shapes.

Something as simple as needing poker chips in your game will be difficult to do with a U.S. printer unless you want to source out components to different factories/outlets and then assemble yourself - which isn't do-able for most people wanting to sell 2,000+ copies of a game.

With all due respect, some of this isn't passing the sniff test. I've met the two women that assemble games at MMP. None of the packaging comes through combined, each component comes in its own own crate, dice, chits, boards, etc. Putting poker chips in the box is no different than putting dice in the box.

Some of MMP's cardboard components are second to none, would look very comfortable on an Arkham Horror board. Some of their art is superb. As for cutting them into odd shapes, who frikkin' cares? One of the issues that MMP brings up in their printing schedule is the cut layout for the chit sheets, so that's fair. But I couldn't care less if my Mahaffey artwork has a rounded or a squared top.

They do indeed do paper maps, but that's not exactly a showstopper in my book, because they're as big as they need to be and they're second to none art-wise as well. Unfortunately mounted boards seems to be some sort of minimum entry requirement for the general market, in spite of them warping.

Minis -- you got me. Boardgaming is minis now, because they raise the base price which raises the net revenue per copy. The industry has talked us into needing minis, to the point that even the euro crowd sees them as a must-have. I don't mind minis, but as often as not they're putting a game up around $100 when it has $35 worth of play in it. It also takes twice as much room to store.

Harumph. Damn kids. Where the hell is my whiskey?

S.