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Warped Boards!

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04 Dec 2014 10:39 #191897 by Sagrilarus
Replied by Sagrilarus on topic Re: Warped Boards!

charlest wrote: A U.S. printer isn't going to offer many different card sizes/box sizes, plastic component options etc.


So where do GMT and MMP print their U.S. games? Anybody know?

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04 Dec 2014 10:41 #191899 by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic Re: Warped Boards!
Definitely, there is strong path dependency for any industry that has reasonable human and durable capital requirements.

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04 Dec 2014 11:08 #191906 by VonTush
Replied by VonTush on topic Re: Warped Boards!
I think Mayfair still does all their production in the states. Same with Decision Games I believe.

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04 Dec 2014 12:47 #191916 by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic Re: Warped Boards!

Sagrilarus wrote:

charlest wrote: A U.S. printer isn't going to offer many different card sizes/box sizes, plastic component options etc.


So where do GMT and MMP print their U.S. games? Anybody know?


And they have mounted/paper maps and standard sized cards along with solid but unspectacular chits.

They don't have any plastic parts, they don't have small/mini sized cards, they don't have oversized cards or player aids, and they don't have tiles/boards/cardboard cut in odd or varying shapes.

Something as simple as needing poker chips in your game will be difficult to do with a U.S. printer unless you want to source out components to different factories/outlets and then assemble yourself - which isn't do-able for most people wanting to sell 2,000+ copies of a game.

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04 Dec 2014 13:31 #191920 by Sagrilarus
Replied by Sagrilarus on topic Re: Warped Boards!

charlest wrote:

Sagrilarus wrote:

charlest wrote: A U.S. printer isn't going to offer many different card sizes/box sizes, plastic component options etc.


So where do GMT and MMP print their U.S. games? Anybody know?


And they have mounted/paper maps and standard sized cards along with solid but unspectacular chits.

They don't have any plastic parts, they don't have small/mini sized cards, they don't have oversized cards or player aids, and they don't have tiles/boards/cardboard cut in odd or varying shapes.

Something as simple as needing poker chips in your game will be difficult to do with a U.S. printer unless you want to source out components to different factories/outlets and then assemble yourself - which isn't do-able for most people wanting to sell 2,000+ copies of a game.


With all due respect, some of this isn't passing the sniff test. I've met the two women that assemble games at MMP. None of the packaging comes through combined, each component comes in its own own crate, dice, chits, boards, etc. Putting poker chips in the box is no different than putting dice in the box.

Some of MMP's cardboard components are second to none, would look very comfortable on an Arkham Horror board. Some of their art is superb. As for cutting them into odd shapes, who frikkin' cares? One of the issues that MMP brings up in their printing schedule is the cut layout for the chit sheets, so that's fair. But I couldn't care less if my Mahaffey artwork has a rounded or a squared top.

They do indeed do paper maps, but that's not exactly a showstopper in my book, because they're as big as they need to be and they're second to none art-wise as well. Unfortunately mounted boards seems to be some sort of minimum entry requirement for the general market, in spite of them warping.

Minis -- you got me. Boardgaming is minis now, because they raise the base price which raises the net revenue per copy. The industry has talked us into needing minis, to the point that even the euro crowd sees them as a must-have. I don't mind minis, but as often as not they're putting a game up around $100 when it has $35 worth of play in it. It also takes twice as much room to store.

Harumph. Damn kids. Where the hell is my whiskey?

S.

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04 Dec 2014 13:45 - 04 Dec 2014 13:46 #191922 by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic Re: Warped Boards!

Sagrilarus wrote:

charlest wrote:

Sagrilarus wrote:

charlest wrote: A U.S. printer isn't going to offer many different card sizes/box sizes, plastic component options etc.


So where do GMT and MMP print their U.S. games? Anybody know?


And they have mounted/paper maps and standard sized cards along with solid but unspectacular chits.

They don't have any plastic parts, they don't have small/mini sized cards, they don't have oversized cards or player aids, and they don't have tiles/boards/cardboard cut in odd or varying shapes.

Something as simple as needing poker chips in your game will be difficult to do with a U.S. printer unless you want to source out components to different factories/outlets and then assemble yourself - which isn't do-able for most people wanting to sell 2,000+ copies of a game.


With all due respect, some of this isn't passing the sniff test. I've met the two women that assemble games at MMP. None of the packaging comes through combined, each component comes in its own own crate, dice, chits, boards, etc. Putting poker chips in the box is no different than putting dice in the box.

Some of MMP's cardboard components are second to none, would look very comfortable on an Arkham Horror board. Some of their art is superb. As for cutting them into odd shapes, who frikkin' cares? One of the issues that MMP brings up in their printing schedule is the cut layout for the chit sheets, so that's fair. But I couldn't care less if my Mahaffey artwork has a rounded or a squared top.

They do indeed do paper maps, but that's not exactly a showstopper in my book, because they're as big as they need to be and they're second to none art-wise as well. Unfortunately mounted boards seems to be some sort of minimum entry requirement for the general market, in spite of them warping.

Minis -- you got me. Boardgaming is minis now, because they raise the base price which raises the net revenue per copy. The industry has talked us into needing minis, to the point that even the euro crowd sees them as a must-have. I don't mind minis, but as often as not they're putting a game up around $100 when it has $35 worth of play in it. It also takes twice as much room to store.

Harumph. Damn kids. Where the hell is my whiskey?

S.


I was unaware MMP did assembling in house, that's a bit crazy and non-standard from what I undestand. Most companies don't assemble their board games in house, even smaller shops don't typically do that.

Most companies have the assembly performed at the printer/factory to reduce costs/time/logistics. There's no way FFG or Z-Man is going to open each box to place dice in them and then shrinkwrap them in their own warehouse, that's not practical.

I'd be surprised if GMT is assembling any of their games.

Odd-shaped cuts, who cares? Clearly people do. I quite enjoy my Cave Evil dungeon tiles thank you.

When I said plastic I wasn't talking about miniatures, I'm not discussing miniatures at all. I'm talking about things like poker chips, the plastic stands used in Cave Evil for the stand-ups, plastic coins such as in Rogue Agent or Merchants and Marauders. Z-Man is not opening each pallet of Merchants and Marauders games, cracking each box, and placing those plastic coins in the box. The factory is doing that for good reason.

I'm not sure you really said anything but "MMP and GMT can print in the U.S., why can't anyone else?" I replied back with because they make small print runs and are not very demanding from a physical product standpoint (in terms of requiring different/unique components) and you counter with I'm a crazy kid because MMP puts dice in their boxes?

Edit - Just FYI, I have no problem with MMP or GMTs component quality and am not insinuating their components are crappy.
Last edit: 04 Dec 2014 13:46 by charlest.

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04 Dec 2014 14:03 #191923 by VonTush
Replied by VonTush on topic Re: Warped Boards!
Off the top of my head:
Manouvre has small cards
Conquest of Paradise has 'odd' shapes
Washington's War has those little plastic stands

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04 Dec 2014 14:12 #191926 by SuperflyPete
Replied by SuperflyPete on topic Re: Warped Boards!

Michael Barnes wrote: I have never, in all my years of gaming, witnessed a game manufactured in Germany (all of Europe, really) or the US that had warped boards. Just sayin'.


What I read is, "I only play games once, then they go away."

It really does have to do with Chinese production and quality control. Who knows what kind of horrid chemicals and industrial by-products all of these made-in-China games are soaked with. We may never know.

Arsenic and Cadmium. Always.

The worst example still remains Duel in the Dark. Will we ever know what was on those boards when they arrived in the US? Mold, ammonia, who knows.

No, the worst in history is Blood Feud in New York. The chemical smell from the plastics in it was so bad I got an instant 2-day headache and had to toss the whole game in the bin.

The worst example of board warping recently that I've seen was Rampage. I actually went to customer service on that. The boards were like really shallow half-pipes, which made the game almost unplayable what with it being a carrom thing and all. On top of that, the counter sheets were miscut, which also affected gameplay. To Asmodee's credit, they replaced almost the entire game apart from the wood for me.


Funny, but I play the living shit out of Rampage and our board never warps. Now, I don't have Hot-Lanta kinds of humidity but it's still very humid here and we play outside in the summer (the crowd gasps), and we haven't got the problem.

My worst is Space Hulk. Man am I pissed about it.

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04 Dec 2014 14:17 #191928 by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic Re: Warped Boards!

VonTush wrote: Off the top of my head:
Manouvre has small cards
Conquest of Paradise has 'odd' shapes
Washington's War has those little plastic stands


Good points.

Manouevre - Some printers may do small cards but I'm positive they all (maybe most?) don't. I'm sure you would be very limited in the dimensions you can request.

Conquest of Paradise - Hexes? It's been awhile since I've seen this game in person and I can't find any images which show anything oddly shaped?

Washington's War - Curious if this is a standard item from their printer or not. Cave Evil had to go elsewhere to get them and couldn't get them.


I'm not trying to act like an authority on this, I was merely offering a possible reason to Sag's question based on some (although limited) knowledge. My publisher tried to get Fistful of Dinero printed in the U.S. and had several long discussions with people questioning why it was so hard to get done, and the cheapest quote he could get was $22 for 1,500 copies. I can't recall the different printers he checked out (think there were three main ones) and he would have had to source the poker chips from another location. WinGo came back able to print 1,000 copies with a nice, thick poker chip, for $8 a copy.

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04 Dec 2014 14:50 #191930 by VonTush
Replied by VonTush on topic Re: Warped Boards!
My guess is the printer, assuming they did final assembly, outsourced them. I do that all the time at my work (I've been in the manufacturing industry for 10+ years now).

A shape is a shape...The cost is making the die. The actual shape is only a fraction of the overall cost. So any punch-board that has a non-standard (as in 11 rows of 12 or 10 or something like that) will have a tooling cost to make the die. So basically any GMT game like Leaping Lemmings, Washinton's War, Labyrinth...etc. (anything that isn't rows of the same size chits) will have similar tooling costs.

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04 Dec 2014 14:54 - 04 Dec 2014 14:55 #191931 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Re: Warped Boards!

VonTush wrote: I think Mayfair still does all their production in the states.


They definitely do.

In fact, in one of my many 'how to cut the collection' exercises I've turned over in my head...one was...what if I only owned Mayfair games? They make great (content and quality) family, train, and wargames. All my bases would be covered. All made in the US as well.

Regarding odd card sizes and such, eh, I'd be fine with a standard size.
Last edit: 04 Dec 2014 14:55 by Mr. White.

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04 Dec 2014 15:17 #191932 by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic Re: Warped Boards!
Almost positive GMT does assembly in house. They have pictures of big "all hands on deck" assembly days, IIRC. The owner even brings in his kids, etc. That's why you have that little sheet of paper in your GMT games that tells you which office lady did the assembly!
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04 Dec 2014 15:17 #191933 by Sagrilarus
Replied by Sagrilarus on topic Re: Warped Boards!
The only advantage to having all of your components assembled in the Chinese factory is that all of the components are in China. The publisher pays extra for that service. If your parts are printed locally you have the choice of doing it yourself. It really just is about who you want to pay to do it.

This only matters for custom pieces. The little stands that hold counters upright and dice and the like are bought off the shelf unless they have unique features.

Apparently all of this is much cheaper in China, enough different to warrant the loss of control on quality. The one place I do have issues with warped boards is my copy of Manoeuvre, made in China on very thin stock. Nothing in the package particularly stunning or unique, can't imagine that the small sized cards were the deciding factor. Price had to be what drove the decision.

S.

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04 Dec 2014 15:31 #191934 by VonTush
Replied by VonTush on topic Re: Warped Boards!
As the HR Manager/Bookkeeper at my office I can tell you, there's a lot of costs that we incur that add to the overall product cost that doesn't have a lick to do with the finished product.
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04 Dec 2014 17:18 #191947 by Sevej
Replied by Sevej on topic Re: Warped Boards!
My most expensive board game expenditure is Band of Brothers, which is made in USA. FFG products are consistent enough (and they have always provided excellent solution when they aren't, e.g. AGOT 2nd Ed replacement boards), so for all I care, China is the way to go.

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