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Hilarious TOS troll

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02 Nov 2015 17:59 #213952 by san il defanso
Replied by san il defanso on topic Hilarious TOS troll
I should really say, I don't have Tom's exact quote in front of me, and I could very easily be misrepresenting him. That's not my intention at all, it just feels like there's always a lot of defensiveness whenever the subject of prices comes up.

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02 Nov 2015 18:06 #213954 by Michael Barnes
Replied by Michael Barnes on topic Hilarious TOS troll
There sure is...and I have to say, that increasingly when I see the most expensive games getting astronomical ratings at BGG...I get suspicious. It's not like BGG ratings actually correspond to anything of value, but when you think about the Kingdom Death raters and how much they've spent...I can't help but wonder if there isn't a degree of "I SPENT $400 FOR THIS GAME- IT'S REALLY GREAT I MEAN IT!"

It's like those gold-plated AV cables you can buy...rich people buy them and claim that they make a world of difference. Yet tests show that the human ear can't actually detect any improvement in quality. When my millionaire friend went to buy his first big-screen TV 15 years ago or so, I sat there and listened to a salesman at HiFi Buys convince him that these $200 cables were critical to his system. And of course, being young and rich, his eyes lit up...they were gold, so they HAD to be better. And of course, when they were installed, he talked about how much difference they made. I couldn't tell. But he had to justify that expense.

So I think some of the defensiveness you see about price is because a lot of people have spent too much on certain games. And if you've got a month's worth of income tied up in various Kickstarters, you don't want to hear some guy on the internet straight-talking about how much games costs.
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02 Nov 2015 18:10 #213955 by charlieturtle
Replied by charlieturtle on topic Hilarious TOS troll

Iori Yagami wrote: Well, if all I can afford are lame fillers and cards. . . . . Then why bother?

I'm not sure how you can take someone seriously after an opening statement like this. If I can't _________ then why try? This reminds me of a small percentage of the kids who I have tutored for science fairs. Just because you can't afford exactly what you want, or it is not available to you, or both in this guys case doesn't mean you are left out. Thrift shops, bartering, friends who will ship you things from affordable regions, PnP options might all be available to this guy. And even if they are not, there are cheaper games that are more than fillers and not all card games are lame.

Iori Yagami wrote: They are preying on your sadness.

This applies to every class of entertainment it doesn't matter if it costs money or not.

Iori Yagami wrote: As soon as large number of bored/lonely/awkward people appear who are of above average intelligence and some money to spend, they market illusions to you.

This also applies to anything someone can sell. You can also replace bored/lonely/awkward people with anyone with disposable income to spend. I'm not sure why he felt the need to insult those who can afford games, I don't see this phenotype in most of the gamers I know.

Iori Yagami wrote: This is the bitter spoonful of tar that spoils the whole barrel of sweet honey.

I really like this sentence, I'm gong to have to plagerize it some day to insult some awkward people.

I'd classify myself as not poor, but as a soon to be graduation graduate student, I've seen my game buying power drop to nearly zero in the last 6 years, but I've never felt the pure jealousy of this guy before. If I don't have the cash for games I don't buy them. Just as I can't afford to go to the theater, eat out at nice restaurants, or buy new clothes (we do buy new clothes so our kids don't run around naked). I would say the average age of game played at most of my gaming groups are over 10 years old and I am only one of two people I know on BGG. Whining about the cult of the new or the people who can afford it seems a bit juvenile.
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02 Nov 2015 18:18 #213957 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Hilarious TOS troll
I always know that there's a good discussion going on when I kind of sway back and forth on my kneejerk responses and get to the point where I feel like addressing several good points.

I skimmed the BGG thread and it was obvious to me that the OP came in with a firebreathing agenda. He was going to make his point and trade blows with anyone who disagreed because disagreeing just means they're part of the problem. In short, he was venting. That's fine. Everyone does it at some point. I think his complaints about the current economics of boardgames are valid, especially given his geography (i.e. not US) and, yes, MB, someone did raise the "how much value do you get out of multiple plays" and "cheaper than X hobby", which carry some validity as responses but if you're trying to say that something is cheaper than golf, let's just set the bar high, shall we? I mean, golf is cheaper than collecting classic cars, too.

On Vasel, well... Games are a luxury item. In the purest economic terms, so are books, cars, and TVs. Try telling the guy living in rural Michigan and driving 50 miles each way to his job in Ann Arbor that his 12-year-old Honda is a "luxury item" and he'll probably look at you the same way the OP did when people tossed the "then don't buy them" response back in his face. He's a gamer. He wants to buy and play games. He can't to the extent that he'd like to at this point, so he's bitching about it. There's nothing wrong with that. I do agree with Nate that the barrier to entry to boardgaming as a hobby is steadily rising (which is at least as much a measure of stagnation of wages as it is inflation of both general price point and publication costs of new games and the competition inherent to nicer components, artwork, etc.) I've stopped buying new stuff, by and large, in part because I don't have time to play everything I own and in part because I just don't feel like spending that much money on cardboard anymore. I mostly trade for new things, which means I don't see much new and, therefore, am not really a "hobbyist" any longer.

That said, I really disagree with MB's portrayal of the gaming audience these days, not only because it doesn't reflect me and the vast majority of people that I know who play games, but because said audience for them has really broadened in the past few years in the same way that the audience for video games has changed (and is now part of the lusted-after demographic of most major advertisers and their associated producers.) I'm not saying he's completely wrong, because the hardcore gamer who only comes out to cons and has trouble socializing outside of the absorption of media does exist. I know many and they are certainly more prevalent among the convention-going circuit. But I think that's a dwindling subset, in all honesty. That's part of what the Gamergate flap was all about, in that the gaming medium was being "invaded" by people that weren't as socially awkward (read: women) and the members of that subset were even more disturbed that their cubbyhole now had to be shared.

As for people spending thousands to go to Essen and more thousands simply to own games instead of actually play them... Hey, man: whatever floats your boat. If that's what makes you happy and it's not hurting anyone else (unless they like that... (I know a lot of those, too)), go for it. Life's about experience and if that's the experience (points!) you want, feel free. If people think that's a statement that they're making on BGG, it probably is. But, again, it's not really hurting anyone else. If you think it's having a macro effect and damaging the potential of Latvians to likewise enjoy the hobby, I guess there's an argument to be made, but I don't have the facts on that one.
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02 Nov 2015 18:24 - 02 Nov 2015 18:28 #213958 by Erik Twice
Replied by Erik Twice on topic Hilarious TOS troll

Michael Barnes wrote: But let's face it, a lot of people invested heavily in ANY hobby are often running from sadness, loneliness or a lack of direction in their real-world lives. Not ALL, don't jump all over me for generalizing. Not everybody into games or whatever is socially fucked up, depressed or lonely. But don't lie to yourself. There are MANY people for whom a hobby like gaming is a way to either live a vicarious life or provide some sort of social "adapter" so that they can at least hold a conversation with other people.

No, no, don't apologize Barnes, I think this is an undeniable fact and a quite important one at that. I think the problem is that we always talk about it in very general terms so we end up grouping different groups of people together and muddying the conversation instead of digging into the issue.

I mean, you mention how gaming helped a guy to come out of their closet. This is incredibly common in games, I can't think of any other hobby that has helped as many people come out as gaming. And the same goes with depression or other issues, there are lots and lots of articles out there in which a writer explains how gaming has helped them deal with the loss of a member of their family or the loss of a job or any other big problem. Why that is is something so common is something I cannot answer but it seems more than true.

The problem in this regard is that some of this people will inevitably resort to toxic, community-damaging behaviour in an attempt to patch their terrible self-steem. Most people calling for witch hunts, or insulting Anita Sarkeesian or talking about how vigilantism is the answer to racism aren't bad people, they are simply radicalizing themselves because they need something to hold to. And since neither gaming nor radicalism can help them out they can go on like this forever, delving further and further into the rabbit hole.

I don't think this group is very common in boardgaming, though it tends to show itself when it comes to politics from time to time. The group you mention seems to be much older and while they still suffer from self-steem problems they are not as severe as doubting your sexuality or falling into some sort of radicalization. Most simply feel a need to justify themselves or be a little smug, you know, more like the kind of people who complain loudly to nobody in particular when there's a queue than someone who is deeply troubled.

This group's way of coping with their self-steem problem seems to be elitism. The look for ways to prove they are better than others in a more indirect manner, you know, having a huge collection, knowing designers by name, going to fairs or being well-known in the community. I know it's unfair, but "valuable members of the community" (critics, contributors to community efforts, well-known posters) is a group with way more elitist douchebags than the gaming average and you probably know a bunch of examples. Often it's not a big thing, it's the kind of stuff we are all guilty of and some people tend to bank more on it than others.

San Il Defanso wrote: A couple weeks ago I was listening to The Dice Tower, and Tom Vasel said something to the effect that since board games are a luxury item, there is no room to complain about prices. If you are that on the bubble with your finances, maybe you shouldn't be getting any board games.

He's not wrong, but as someone who is able to spend basically zero money on this hobby it struck me as a little nasty, and rather presumptuous.

It is nasty because it's basically telling people to stop criticizing their hobby because they are not well-off enough to do so. Kind of a "go back to think about the dirt you eat, peasants".
Last edit: 02 Nov 2015 18:28 by Erik Twice.
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02 Nov 2015 18:25 #213959 by Michael Barnes
Replied by Michael Barnes on topic Hilarious TOS troll
I actually agree with you Jack about the negative gamer types dwindling in recent years...I think that is definitely a knock-on effect of games becoming more mainstream due to video games/computer games and also their greater visibility (Carcassone at Target, whodathunkit). There is a lot more diversity and a lot more REGULAR folks into gaming than there was even ten years ago when I was running my shop. But they are still out there, and unfortunately they color a lot of folks' opinions of hobby gaming. You walk into a game shop and that one guy that's like that is the one that sets the tone for the place unless you know to look past him.

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02 Nov 2015 18:39 #213961 by wadenels
Replied by wadenels on topic Hilarious TOS troll

Michael Barnes wrote: ... I look on BGG and I see all these "backer support" posts and these cheerleading posts where everyone gets together to vindicate/validate their excessive purchasing. That to me, even as someone that can get most games I want for free, is very alienating and off-putting.


That's very much where I'm at. I don't really care how much money people are spending on what, but there's almost desperation in the air to vindicate the amount of money people are spending. Publishers will certainly help people fill their shelves, but I just want good games with serviceable components.

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02 Nov 2015 18:50 #213962 by scissors
Replied by scissors on topic Hilarious TOS troll
"There is nothing innovative or singular about Cthulhu Wars other than the ridiculous miniatures."

has your opinion changed since March?

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02 Nov 2015 19:01 #213964 by Michael Barnes
Replied by Michael Barnes on topic Hilarious TOS troll
I don't know yet, I just got it today. Hearing first-hand accounts about it made me more interested in it as more of a Nexus Ops-class DoaM game, which I generally tend to like. The price point was VERY off-putting, and it is NOT a game I would have bought. I thought I'd take a chance on asking and they agreed (with a short turnaround time) so I figured I'd see what the fuss is about. A couple of people who generally have good taste have had positive responses, so who knows. I ain't above saying "I was wrong about this game". If that's the case.

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02 Nov 2015 19:03 #213965 by san il defanso
Replied by san il defanso on topic Hilarious TOS troll
I would also push against the idea of the "typical" gamer being a giant amoeba person who has three beards and smells like cheese. Part of that is that in terms of personality types (not racially) this is a very diverse hobby. There is a huge variety of personalities and interests, and a huge variety of games to play.

I mentioned this somewhere else, but the hobby has definitely gotten a lot younger lately as well. That's a very good thing.

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02 Nov 2015 19:16 #213967 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Hilarious TOS troll

Michael Barnes wrote: But they are still out there, and unfortunately they color a lot of folks' opinions of hobby gaming. You walk into a game shop and that one guy that's like that is the one that sets the tone for the place unless you know to look past him.


Sure. No argument there. They'll set the tone because they're not "normal" to the new people walking into the store for the first time.

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02 Nov 2015 19:17 #213968 by scissors
Replied by scissors on topic Hilarious TOS troll
Ha! I bought the thing in a moment of instanity and unloaded it because the buyer's remorse or sticker shock was too great. I am sure the game is great for real Cthulhu fans (like the designer) and many others but I came to the conclusion that this particular game was too expensive for me (strictly subjective). I could afford it it but decided I didnt really need this. box is huge. statues are impressive. but we were never going to play it enough to justify it being at home. so off it went.

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02 Nov 2015 19:23 #213969 by Michael Barnes
Replied by Michael Barnes on topic Hilarious TOS troll
The problem I have with it right out of the box is that this kind of game I usually play with five or six...and to play with five or six, means buying $100 worth additional factions AND another $50 for another map. Back when Chaos was first out, four players limited it with my group. Horned Rat tripled its tabletime even two years or whatever after the base game's release.

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02 Nov 2015 19:37 - 02 Nov 2015 19:57 #213970 by boothwah
Replied by boothwah on topic Hilarious TOS troll
I wouldn't classify myself or my group of gaming buddies as hobbyists - We all love gaming, we all buy games, but to be honest we are about as far from the cult of the new as you could be - Not that we aren't interested or wouldn't love to try out some of the pretties we see, the reality is we just can't or won't justify spending that kind of cash on our once or twice a month gaming sessions - Games that end up getting picked up tend to have broader appeal, are older, have ton of reviews, have been test run by one or more of us at Funagain in Ashland or Eugene. To get any of us to spend more than $60.00 on our 3 or 4 times a year purchases it's got to be something that we've all played and all dig, otherwise it's an expensive shelf trophy.

I've tried out a ton of FTP OL games over the years and the only ones that ever got any money out of me were the ones that used the platform to produce a good game, and the ftp was an intro to convert you into buying a reasonable sub or unlock for the full game. The ones where their monetization was PTW and microtransactions got dumped almost immediately - those games are looking at hooking "Whales" : Individual users that would spend inane amounts of money for cosmetic prestige and spending time at the top of leaderboards.


I say that I because I have noticed in my gaming group is that we've developed various brand loyalties - For instance, it takes a lot for us even to consider anything from FFG. Same thing for the companies that are relying on selling game "systems." There is definitely a portion of the gaming market that looks like they are trying to hook "Whales" and the people that I run with aren't interested in that at all, and when we see repeated product offerings in that vein it just raises our level of skepticism towards those companies.
Last edit: 02 Nov 2015 19:57 by boothwah.
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02 Nov 2015 20:22 #213971 by Black Barney
Replied by Black Barney on topic Hilarious TOS troll
Looking at you all fitting in and stuff

# I need attention

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