Hilarious TOS troll

San Il Defanso wrote: A couple weeks ago I was listening to The Dice Tower, and Tom Vasel said something to the effect that since board games are a luxury item, there is no room to complain about prices. If you are that on the bubble with your finances, maybe you shouldn't be getting any board games.

He's not wrong, but as someone who is able to spend basically zero money on this hobby it struck me as a little nasty, and rather presumptuous.

I also don't remember the exact quote, but I remember hearing him say this. Like you I don't have much if any money to spend on boardgames, but I don't think this came off as nasty or presumptuous, but I do think he was wrong that people shouldn't complain about it. If there is no push from the "affordable gaming" needs segment of the gaming community, there will be no interest from publishers in making games for that segment of the market.

But this is no reason to go off on those who can afford Kingdom Death, Cthulu wars or the latest hotness by the trunkloads. I have a hard time beleiving people showing off these games on BGG and making you tube videos of going to Essen aren't doing it out of elitism, but I think it is because they enjoy their hobby and want to share it with others.

I stopped buying games a while ago. New games are fun and look pretty but are usually not significantly different from existing games I have once the shine has worn off.

Also, now that I am middle-aged, I think a lot about retirement and specifically how I can retire ASAP, because I don't like my job enough to do it for free. One interesting thing thrown around the "early retirement" blogs is "the rule of 173," which states that you can take any optional monthly expense, multiply it by 173, and that is how much money you will have in 10 years if you cut it out of your life and instead invest it in a boring, low-cost index fund (assuming average returns etc.). It is pretty sobering to do the math and realize that you could retire 5-10 years earlier if you stop buying (almost all) new games.

That's 5-10 more years of actually playing games with people. And of spending time with your kids, volunteering, whatever. You will have a smaller collection and not be as cool on BGG. Seems like a pretty small price to pay.

Playing games as a hobby can be fairly cheap. A deck of cards and copy of Scrabble doesn't cost $150 even in Latvia. Collecting games is not cheap though even in America and I don't see how anyone short of Bill Gates can think that it is. However, whether each new box of cardboard is worth the money or not is up to the person spending it. For myself, I don't see having several thousand dollars sitting on shelves in my dining room as either a good investment or a necessity. Playing games I like is just something I do with friends for fun because I enjoy it. If I had to pay $150 for each game I'd probably have spent just as much and have fewer games. But here's the important part. It took me years and years of spending affordable (for me) amounts to amass my collection. Same with most people on this site and BGG. That guy is new and thinks he has to do it all right away. Spend what you can when you can. That's the best amount for any hobby.

Playing games can be an inexpensive hobby, though there are still a lot of assumptions of non-monetary advantages. For example, you need time, which can be an absolute luxury to some people.

But let's face it, BGG is not aimed at the hobby of playing games. It can be used for that, and many people do, but a lot is based around a "collection", which means more than just "the games I happen to own". This is where my usual complaint about nerd "culture" comes in, because it is so often centered around visible consumption and purchasing. Sure, any hobby has an amount of buy-in, and living in America means you can always spend as much as you want on anything, but most of nerd "culture" is about celebrating non-stop buying of stupid shit as a status symbol. Modern fandom isn't about being a fan of something, it's about being a fan of fandom itself, and is demonstrated by buying the shirt, the DVD, the Funko Pops, the geegaws and whatzits. (I'm wearing a "Vault-Tec" shirt as I type this; I'm not excluding myself.)

On BGG discussion is geared towards endless consumption. Have you played and enjoyed Agricola? Then by god you need these twelve other games by the same guy doing roughly the same thing. Are you "a sucker for train games"? Then you need this umptyjillionth variation on 18xx. Maybe you like classic games like Acquire? Well the latest (inexpensive) edition SUUUUUCKS with its cheap flimsy production; you'll want to find the gorgeous all-plastic version. I'm currently selling Homesteaders, and was looking in the Marketplace to get an idea what to charge for it. It's out of print, and some clown has it for eighty goddamn dollars. Now, he's not going to get $80 for it, but his reasoning is solid by BGG standards: 1) it's OOP and therefore "valuable", 2) whatever the "free market" decides is reasonable and fair (until it's asking too much for something *I* want, at which point it's All Gone Wrong.) It drives me up the fucking wall when I hear dinks over there talking about "holes" in their "collection". "What if I need a game for seven left-handed Belgian dentists with high blood pressure that plays in 45 minutes? Will this new Stefan Feld fill that gap?" And don't even get me started on all the nonsense surrounding Kickstarter, especially when it comes to "exclusives".

So while I didn't read that whole thread, I think there's a valid point that boardgaming, as typically exemplified by BGG, is indeed an expensive hobby, in terms of not only just money but other requirements to pursue it on their terms. And this applies to many other nerd hobbies as well. (And, I'm sure, other hobbies, but nerd-dom is what I know.) As usual, nerds like to think they're still the downtrodden underdogs, but they're not, and pointing out the advantages their culture assumes and rewards makes them super uncomfortable.

As for the "smelly nerd" I don't see that as much when I go elsewhere. What I do see, though, is still a lot of immature, reactionary, sexist and racist shit. I can't see or smell most people on BGG, but I sure as hell see a lot of either eye-rolling juvenile shit or idiotic nerdbro nonsense. I don't like sitting next to a guy who hasn't changed his clothes since last week, but I also hate sitting near a guy who hasn't changed his worldview since he was nine.

bfkiller wrote:

Msample wrote: Hell, you don't have to go as far as Australia to see this. Canada, between their current weak currency ( 3 years ago it traded even with the US dollar, now its worth 30% less ) , inspection fees, and generally high postage fees, pays a lot more for games than we do. Also it doesn't appear that are overseas equivalents of CoolStuff, Games Surplus, etc who sell new product at 30% off MSRP ( as is laid out as a god given right in the BGG Bill of Rights ) . So the gap between what many in the US pay for games vs the rest of the world is pretty steep.

Damn straight. I went to check out Space Cadets: Away Missions at my local store the other day. $135!!

Dude: $85 at Great Boardgames (formerly German Boardgames), currently on sale at $70!

San Il Defanso wrote: A couple weeks ago I was listening to The Dice Tower, and Tom Vasel said something to the effect that since board games are a luxury item, there is no room to complain about prices. If you are that on the bubble with your finances, maybe you shouldn't be getting any board games.

Says the man who gets thousands in free games a year, and gets advertising revenue on top of it. Wow. Even if he wasn't a big-shot reviewer, that's an incredibly stupid comment.

Legomancer wrote: "What if I need a game for seven left-handed Belgian dentists with high blood pressure that plays in 45 minutes? Will this new Stefan Feld fill that gap?"

That had me blowing coffee out of my nose while laughing....

His main mistake is following board gaming media and forums. That's where all the FOMO is that's driving the desperate acquisition of games. Our local meetup group is attracting more and more new people, people who don't know what a BGG is, or who Feld is. They are happy, delighted even, to be playing the 20 yr old copy of Catan or any number of cheaper small & card games. We do it to ourselves.

I believe that those crazy expensive kickstarter games are still the outliers rather than the norm (at least here in the US). I think the reason it seems like they're taking over the hobby is because they get talked about very loudly and very passionately. People will back one of these $150+ and get excited for reaching stretch goals. So they get very "ra ra...let's rally the troops to get more cool stuff" about the game. Yeah, it's a wee bit crazy to see people chucking $400 or whatever at a boardgame, but it's their money and it's not harming anyone.

I don't really see non kickstarter games going up to $150 or more in retail price. FFG Big-Box games retail for $100, but can be purchased online anywhere from $50-$75 depending on the sale. It ain't all that different from their coffin box days. The big bad Pandemic Legacy is currently $53 on Amazon...free shipping. T.I.M.E. Stories is $40 free shipping. The majority of games coming out from the standard publishers are still fairly affordable. Plus, they don't have exclusive kickstarter stuff to track down.

I think the tales of boardgaming barrier of entry being too high are a tad bit exaggerated. Is it an expensive hobby? Yes, it sure can be. However, it doesn't have to be. There are GREAT games that a person just getting into gaming can find for very reasonable prices. Here are few:

Bohnanza - $13 on amazon
King of Tokyo - $27 on amazon
Pandemic - $23 on Amazon and in stores at Target
The Resistance - $13 on amazon
Small World - $33 on amazon
Cash n Guns - $29 on amazon
Lords of Waterdeep - $37 on amazon
Puerto Rico - $33 on amazon
Wiz War - $34
Betrayal at House on the Hill $34
Beast Bar - $20
Pickomino - $18
Risk: Star Wars - $24
Magic the Gathering Arena of Planeswalker - $20-$30 depending on the day
The Grizzled - $18

Yes, some of these prices are with Amazon Prime, if not add a couple bucks for shipping. My point is you can get into boardgaming without draining your life savings. Whether you're into Euros, Ameritrash, Card Games, Party games...whatever. You can spend as little or as much as you can afford, grab one or two games and have a great time with your friends. If you're really on a budget there are FUN games you can get in the $10-$20 range. A reasonable person could save a little bit of money each month and just buy 1 or 2 games a year. There is nothing wrong with that. You and your pals could get The Grizzled and just play that one game for MONTHS! What a novel concept...playing the game you just bought, over and over. A person new to gaming can find a handful of games and play the ever-loving shit out of them. Yes, if they hop on BGG they're going to get hit with the ol, "you need to buy XYZ right now!" mentality, but a smart person can see through that.

I'm not here to tell anyone how to spend their money or how to enjoy boardgames. That's not my place. Is it annoying to see cool games be expensive as shit? Yes it is. However, the majority of really cool games are still priced like they always were. Like any hobby it can very expensive if you choose to make it. It doesn't have to be. You and your friends can split a copy of Catan and play that game for years and never have to move onto anything else. There is no law of boardgaming that says otherwise. Just do whatever makes financial sense and have fun.

JEM wrote: His main mistake is following board gaming media and forums. That's where all the FOMO is that's driving the desperate acquisition of games. Our local meetup group is attracting more and more new people, people who don't know what a BGG is, or who Feld is. They are happy, delighted even, to be playing the 20 yr old copy of Catan or any number of cheaper small & card games. We do it to ourselves.

THIS

www.meetup.com/Tri-StateBoardgames/

Egg Shen wrote: I believe that those crazy expensive kickstarter games are still the outliers rather than the norm (at least here in the US). I think the reason it seems like they're taking over the hobby is because they get talked about very loudly and very passionately. People will back one of these $150+ and get excited for reaching stretch goals. So they get very "ra ra...let's rally the troops to get more cool stuff" about the game. Yeah, it's a wee bit crazy to see people chucking $400 or whatever at a boardgame, but it's their money and it's not harming anyone.

I do think the big ticket KS games are somewhat of an outlier in terms of market share, but you're correct in that they do generate a disproportionate amount of hype.

As far as harming anyone, maybe that's a poor term, but I do think they suck dollars out of the market away from more normally priced games, as well as increase ( in some cases, unrealistically ) expections on boardgames published via conventional funding methods. .

I understand the sentiment of the guy and it's indeed expensive to get stuff over here. I mean... Dead of Winter is upward of $90 here, and it's like 1/4-1/3 of most people's monthly pay here. We had an influx of new player in the last few months, and it's kind of sad seeing them trying to "keep up". One dude even asked for WoW:TBG...

Jem's comments actually reflect the folks I play with too. Virtually NONE of the people I play games with use BGG more than casually. The Hellfire Club gang knows about new stuff, they know what's "hot" and all but none of them even have accounts, I don't think, including the two people that are published designers. One of them used to be a regular here, but he's more interested in rugby, international law and beer drinking to hang out here these days. My more casual friends couldn't possibly care less if a game is new or whatever and don't keep up with the schedule at all. I could pull out my original Ravensburger copy of Wildlife Adventure and they'd be down with it. The do like to see the new stuff and get excited when we have something cool and new to play, but they are NOT the kind of folks that keep a "need to play" notebook or anything like that.

It's weird, but I am actually kind of a news source for them, moreso than BGG.

They also rarely buy games...a couple of them have gone out and bought some things we've played, but they're hardly chasing down these Cadillac Kickstarters or putting in the $200 monthly order to Funagain, nothing like that.

Jem is 100% correct, we do this shit to ourselves. I sit here every day thinking "Dang, I wish I could get somebody to play tonight" or Argent or Hyperborea or Cave Evil, whatever. But then I put in a request and something like Thunderbirds shows up today. Granted, I have to keep new stuff coming in because I have a job that requires it, but it is exhausting. I've gotten five new games in the mail over the past two days and I think there is another coming this evening. Then I've got to marshall somebody to come play them with me or take them to the Hellfire Club or wherever, spend some time soloing, try to play it a couple more times and by then I've got to move on to something else. It's only the REALLY great, and usually more accessible games that survive this kind of churn unless it is something I want to keep forever.

So I really sympathize with the folks that are spending money for games...especially since so many games are, I feel, not designed to be played for years to come. They are designed to be played ten times at a maximum and then cycled out to make room for something else.

In a sense, even though it is something we do to ourselves, I do also think that it is something that is also created by games simply not having longevity. This has nothing to do with depth or complexity. Because Samurai, for example, is evergreen. I can bring that out ANY TIME and have fun with it. It has a timelessness about it that I think very, very, very few of the current crop of post-Rosenberg worker placement games is going to have.

On the flipside, there are games like X-Wing or TI3 that inspire folks to stay with them, which can make them evergreen as well.

My group is the exact same, Michael. I'm the "window into the hobby"; I took one of the guys to GenCon once, and he had fun but his health is such that he just can't walk like that, so he'll never go again. Maybe GenCon this year.

But as you noted: They don't buy many games, and they are down to play whatever.

You know, it's funny how I'm actually a little jealous of the people who can't afford the Mage Knights and the Cthulhu Wars. If you've only got 10 inexpensive games on your shelf you are going to wear those games in nicely and really appreciate them for what they are.

Back in 2008, Dominion was my first board game. And by 'mine', I mean I bought it because we were getting ready to have a baby and I looked at how awesome my wife's family is with all the games they played and I decided I wanted that for my family too. This is after many years of casually tolerating games like Settlers and Ticket to Ride with family members but I never truly bought into it (though today I do cherish those games). The day it came in the mail was a day my wife and I happened to be going for a weekend getaway so we brought it with us and we played it probably 15 times that weekend and I was entranced. It wasn't expensive, got it on an Amazon deal for $22.

I somehow made my way to FortressAT shortly thereafter and struck a deal with Barnes to get a bunch of his old crap. I don't even remember all the games he sent me but the one I do remember was an old beat to hell version of Survive from 1984. We still have it and actually pull that out pretty frequently.

Anyway, my point is since that I've dropped a healthy amount of money into the hobby, have probably 100 games now. Did the Mage Knight thing and a few other gigantic monstrous games thinking I was going to be elevated to new grand heights in boardgaming. Nope. I've definitely found a new appreciation for the cheap and simple, hence my thread from the other day asking for cheap card games.

Crap I wanted to attach the picture of my kids playing that old Survive but couldn't find it. Talisman will have to do!