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Too Violent

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23 Jan 2012 14:25 #113858 by SuperflyPete
Replied by SuperflyPete on topic Re: Too Violent
I have a bunch of teachers and professors in my family; I get what you're saying. Teachers do get the shitty end of the stick quite a bit. That being said, they put themselves in this position all too often.

By defining what constitutes art or LITERATURE, you put yourself right in the crosshairs.

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23 Jan 2012 14:53 - 23 Jan 2012 14:59 #113866 by scissors
Replied by scissors on topic Re: Too Violent
EDIT: Nevermind, just saw Sag's post.

I don't think I'm putting myself into the corss-hairs though :)
Last edit: 23 Jan 2012 14:59 by scissors.

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23 Jan 2012 14:58 #113867 by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic Re: Too Violent

SuperflyTNT wrote: By defining what constitutes art or LITERATURE, you put yourself right in the crosshairs.


Regardless of what any one person thinks constitutes literature, the fact remains that by the 6th or 7th grade most students in the US are going to be handed a novel that was picked by a state, town or school curriculum committee, and be expected to write a well formed essay with a thesis statement and supporting evidence. Students that haven't been exposed to a variety of different types of narrative styles are going to be at a disadvantage. Elementary teachers have the responsibility of providing the foundation for future education. That means getting their students to read and appreciate novels (or chapter books as the kids call them).
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23 Jan 2012 15:06 - 23 Jan 2012 15:17 #113868 by scissors
Replied by scissors on topic Re: Too Violent

ubarose wrote: Elementary teachers have the responsibility of providing the foundation for future education. That means getting their students to read and appreciate novels (or chapter books as the kids call them).


This is exactly what I was thinking about the whole time.

In high school, if left to my own devices there's tons of important stuff I wouldn't have read or only read much later and been much 'poorer' for it . Hell, I never forgot how we were exposed to harold Pinter's writing and much more besides in Grade 10 because we had an excellent English/drama teacher who cared. Good or great teachers try to expand kids' horizons.
Last edit: 23 Jan 2012 15:17 by scissors.

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23 Jan 2012 15:18 #113871 by Bullwinkle
Replied by Bullwinkle on topic Re: Too Violent
There are two different points being discussed in this thread. The one scissors brought up, and ubarose expanded upon, about the responsibility of a teacher to expand a student's knowledge and skill, is not (I think) being questioned. As Sag has made clear, it's also not the point.

This is, flat out, an individual using her power to suppress (and possibly shame out of existence) a thing she doesn't like. It is possible that the teacher feels constrained by some zero-tolerance policy, but it's more likely that she simply doesn't like it. (And frankly, ZTPs are generally about things people simply don't like, anyway.) It should be apparent to anyone dealing with the school system that many teachers use their position to enforce their political/moral/whatever-you-want-to-call-it views. And I'll bet all the money in my pockets against all the money in your pockets that that's what this is.

At any rate, Sag has a practical problem which needs solving. Using this as a teachable moment has value, but I'd personally make sure the kid understands that just because some people in authority don't like a thing doesn't make it wrong. As for the teacher herself, there's not much you can do except go to her with things you think your son might like and get her approval beforehand. That discussion will also clarify why she's doing what she is.
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23 Jan 2012 15:23 #113872 by SuperflyPete
Replied by SuperflyPete on topic Re: Too Violent

Bullwinkle wrote: Using this as a teachable moment has value, but I'd personally make sure the kid understands that just because some people in authority don't like a thing doesn't make it wrong.


Or, alternatively, introduce him to Loter, who EMBODIES this principle. I mean, a guy who has pink wine in one hand, a microphone in the other, wearing a pink tank top about "All the boys love me" while bottomless AND in the process of marrying a gay couple....that's the man for this job. :)

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23 Jan 2012 15:34 #113874 by scissors
Replied by scissors on topic Re: Too Violent
I get what you're saying Bullwinkle but if it the teacher is really someone as petty and pushing her own agenda as blatantly as you suggest, I'd walk away from it...

I had a teacher like that too once and it was lose-lose for me :( It's nothing pleasant when you can feel that their personal biases, politics whatever are intruding over professionalism... but I wouldn't pursue it to the end. I more or less successfulyl manipulated my parents into taking my side against her... and I sure as hell didn't 'win' - she was a vengeful person (the other side of the coin of some of the great professional teachers I had later). I realise they are out there!

I would certainly tell the child that it's not wrong but that the person is setting out certain requirments that simply don't include your favourite books. He has to grin and bear it and use his own time to pursue the things he likes - I just don't see any other solution.

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23 Jan 2012 15:39 #113876 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Re: Too Violent
From what we know, I think uba and scissors have it right. It sounds more like the teacher is trying to diversify the young man's reading rather than squash something she doesn't like.

From the OP:
"My boy just came home to tell me that his teacher told him he could no longer do reading reports on his Warhammer 40K codex, which is one of things we've been able to get him to read."

If a student was working on their third or fourth paper on the 2004 Boston Red Sox, I'd expect the same behavior. Time to move on a bit with other book reports.
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23 Jan 2012 15:57 #113879 by Bullwinkle
Replied by Bullwinkle on topic Re: Too Violent

Jeff White wrote: From what we know, I think uba and scissors have it right. It sounds more like the teacher is trying to diversify the young man's reading rather than squash something she doesn't like.

From the OP:
"My boy just came home to tell me that his teacher told him he could no longer do reading reports on his Warhammer 40K codex, which is one of things we've been able to get him to read."

You conveniently cut out the actual reason, which Sag stated right after your quote:

Sagrilarus wrote: My boy just came home to tell me that his teacher told him he could no longer do reading reports on his Warhammer 40K codex, which is one of things we've been able to get him to read. Too violent.

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23 Jan 2012 16:14 #113881 by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic Re: Too Violent

Bullwinkle wrote: There are two different points being discussed in this thread. The one scissors brought up, and ubarose expanded upon, about the responsibility of a teacher to expand a student's knowledge and skill, is not (I think) being questioned. As Sag has made clear, it's also not the point.

This is, flat out, an individual using her power to suppress (and possibly shame out of existence) a thing she doesn't like. It is possible that the teacher feels constrained by some zero-tolerance policy, but it's more likely that she simply doesn't like it. (And frankly, ZTPs are generally about things people simply don't like, anyway.) It should be apparent to anyone dealing with the school system that many teachers use their position to enforce their political/moral/whatever-you-want-to-call-it views. And I'll bet all the money in my pockets against all the money in your pockets that that's what this is.

At any rate, Sag has a practical problem which needs solving. Using this as a teachable moment has value, but I'd personally make sure the kid understands that just because some people in authority don't like a thing doesn't make it wrong. As for the teacher herself, there's not much you can do except go to her with things you think your son might like and get her approval beforehand. That discussion will also clarify why she's doing what she is.


I agree with everything you say here. Also, I am too easily baited by 'who has the right to define what is literature' type statements.

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23 Jan 2012 16:16 #113882 by scissors
Replied by scissors on topic Re: Too Violent
Bullwinkle, what we know DO know is that for this teacher they are too violent. She doesn't want to see them in her classroom: wadda ya gonna do? Is it worth going over her head because of it? Having a parent/teacher meeting or meeting with the principal?

For right or wrong that's her position. If you want to change her mind, all the power to you, but I wouldn't know where to begin.

For example, if somebody brings a song into music class with 'inappropriate content' who makes the call - the teacher or the parents??

Teachers can be as narrow-minded as anyone else, subject to the same limitations as anybody. It's unfortunate but that's the reality. On the other hand, nothing is stopping the child from pursuing these books at home, if they're deemed ok by the parents. So read them at home. School is about more than just doing what you want.

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23 Jan 2012 16:22 #113883 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Re: Too Violent
Not left out at all.

My point was the student isn't served well doing the same kind of report over and over. If the issue truly was the violence, why wasn't it brought up the first few times 40K reports were submitted?

Again, knowing little about what has actually gone down besides what Sag is telling us (and I have no reason to believe he's fabricating anything), I can only assume:

A) The teacher has allowed a few of these reports be done previously, and is ready to move the student on. If 'Too violent' was actually used as the reason, then perhaps not the best explanation.

B) 'Too violent' is the child's explanation to the parent on why they can't do more 40K. (AFAIK, the teacher's side has yet to be gathered.)

C) 'Too violent' is a guess on Sag's part.

Regardless, I think the bigger issue is how to move a child on to reading stuff they have little to no interest in. A fun problem all parents and teachers face.
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23 Jan 2012 16:44 #113885 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Re: Too Violent

scissors wrote: School is about more than just doing what you want.


Truth

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23 Jan 2012 17:04 #113887 by Space Ghost
Replied by Space Ghost on topic Re: Too Violent

Jeff White wrote:

scissors wrote: School is about more than just doing what you want.


Truth


Indeed. Some would argue school is learnig how to maximize your potential in an environment that explicitly forbids doing what you want -- which is basically what life is.
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23 Jan 2012 18:45 - 23 Jan 2012 18:45 #113907 by Bullwinkle
Replied by Bullwinkle on topic Re: Too Violent

scissors wrote: She doesn't want to see them in her classroom: wadda ya gonna do?...For right or wrong that's her position. If you want to change her mind, all the power to you, but I wouldn't know where to begin...School is about more than just doing what you want.

scissors, Jeff, on these points I agree with you completely. If you look at my comment on the previous page, you'll see at the end that I specifically do not suggest trying to change this woman's mind. May as well try talking to a stone. Rather, I think Sag should try to find some happy medium, whether it's a different focus or a different work, that his boy will be willing to work on and the teacher will accept.

But, also as I said, one of my main concerns is making sure the boy understands that what he likes is good, despite what a person with power over him thinks. Too often do I see the subtle (and not-so-subtle) ways in which teachers shame something out of the discussion simply because they don't like it.
Last edit: 23 Jan 2012 18:45 by Bullwinkle.
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