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Deadzone - Tile-based miniatures game by Jake Thornton

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07 May 2013 01:47 #151591 by Sevej
Just want to notify you guys about this. Another Mantic kickstarter, sweet spot at $150, which gets you 4 factions (army, rebel, monster, and orc), deluxe game board, and quite a bit of terrain.

It's a skirmish game set in Mantic Warpath universe. The interesting thing is, it's a game in close confined area. Game is played on a 24" x 24" area, with lots of building. It's using 3" x 3" grid for movement and shooting (most weapons ranges are unlimited, except for pistols and the like). Very similar to a game idea I had, about gangs of the future duking it out in dystopian metropolis.

What interest me most is the way it handles line of sight. When you move your figure, you can put it anywhere on the 3" x 3" space, and it uses actual line of sight like Heroscape. LoS is binary, either you see it or not. Unlike Heroscape, every bit of the model is counted, including the base. If you are in a space denoted as in cover, you gain cover. If a model can see another model totally, it's considered to have a clear shot. To make things simple, the attacker can gain clear shot bonus while at the same time the defender is gaining cover bonus.

A lot of the design notes are on www.quirkworthy.com/ Very interesting read.

www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/...iniatures-board-game

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07 May 2013 01:56 #151594 by Dogmatix
I mentioned this in the Specialist Games thread. Thanks for posting all the actual details here. As I said there, it seems like Mantic is stepping right into the gap left by the death of GW's Necromunda. I do like Mantic's models and they're fairly cheap compared to where GW has gone in recent years...

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07 May 2013 02:10 #151596 by the_jake_1973
How the the game different from Necromunda or the other small skirmish games out there?

The LoS rule seems like something that could be houseruled to any system.

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07 May 2013 03:55 #151604 by Sevej
Let's just say it's Necromunda for the current generation.

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07 May 2013 11:33 #151617 by SuperflyPete
I'm less than enthusiastic on it because the "tile-based" movement a'la Ravenloft monsters.

I like the 3D sci-fi terrain they're coming out with, I'd buy some of that, but the game itself doesn't seem that novel or interesting.

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07 May 2013 14:58 #151637 by metalface13

Sevej wrote: Let's just say it's Necromunda for the current generation.


Does it have a campaign mode where your guys level up, learn new skills, get seriously injured and can buy better equipment?

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07 May 2013 15:21 #151642 by DukeofChutney
will it be as good as Dreadzone?

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07 May 2013 19:36 #151668 by SuperflyPete

Sevej wrote: It's a skirmish game set in Mantic Warpath universe. The interesting thing is, it's a game in close confined area. Game is played on a 24" x 24" area, with lots of building. It's using 3" x 3" grid for movement and shooting (most weapons ranges are unlimited, except for pistols and the like). Very similar to a game idea I had, about gangs of the future duking it out in dystopian metropolis.


Now that I can post something more useful, let me throw some stuff out here: Virtually all next-gen (meaning most anything NOT GW-branded) is set in 2x3 or 3x3 battlespaces. Combat Zone from EM-4 ( www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/Combat_Zone_products.html ) is one of the first post-Mordheim/Necro games to take hold in the miniatures arena. Mutants and Death Ray Guns, Atomic Cafe 1957, After the Horsemen, Strange Aeons, Nuclear Renaissance, Wreck-Age, and a bazillion others are like this.

With regard to LOS, this isn't novel either, as almost all miniatures games use true LOS unless they're hex/grid based games, in which case they generally have grid based rules. Heroscape was one of the first games to hybridize the two distinct rule sets with true LOS as well as hex-based movement. What I DO like about LOS in Heroscape is that models are thought to have 360 degree LOS, provided their head can "see" any part of an enemy's targetable areas. I think the idea of being able to target a base is just kind of ridiculous and takes away from the realism of a game.

I'm not aware of a "grid based" movement system where you can move into any area within a 3" square, so that's new, but I'm not sure how it fits into an overall gamespace. I'd have to see how it handles 3D environments (can you move from level 1 to level 3 in a building if it's one 3" space away?). I like the idea of simplifying movement away from rulers, but the downside is that it requires you to have a 3" square-marked mat, and it also makes using someone else's terrain products less viable.

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08 May 2013 13:23 - 08 May 2013 13:28 #151707 by Sevej
Ganesha Games rules are fun, but it's not for those who's looking for tactical challenge. Most THW rules are fun and feel incredibly realistic, but that it's so radically different from other rules make it hard to be mainstream. Ed's poor presentation on the blog is not helping either, and recently they are getting more and more abstract.

Allowing all parts to be accounted for shooting simplifies a lot of things. Some models can be weird on when the base ends and the model begins.

Model placement within 3" grids is vital. You can even place it over the grid lines as long as the model center is on the chosen grid, allowing corner shooting. It is nothing innovative, but when you put them together it feels really slick. I had a chat with Jake on his blog, discussing about grid system, and we both agree that grid based LOS can be very complex, especially with multi level battlefield. His solution cut through lots of thing and prett easy to eyeball.

Movement is actually very simple. With 1 move action, you can move 1 space and also move upor down 1 level, as long as there's a wall to climb.

3" grid mat is actually very easy to acquire these days especially with all those star wars maps.

The alpha rulebook is available online. Somewhere.

@metalface
Yes there will be campaign. I'm curious on how Jake will solve this.
Last edit: 08 May 2013 13:28 by Sevej.

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08 May 2013 13:46 - 08 May 2013 13:46 #151709 by SuperflyPete
THW? What's that?

It sounds like you're willing to overlook some things to justify liking the game, and that's cool. We all do that. I'm not saying it's going to be bunk or anything, I'm just saying that in a sea of games, the only thing "new" here is the grid-based movement, and I'm not really keen on it.
Last edit: 08 May 2013 13:46 by SuperflyPete.

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08 May 2013 15:00 #151730 by metalface13

Sevej wrote: @metalface
Yes there will be campaign. I'm curious on how Jake will solve this.


Now I'm listening.

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08 May 2013 16:28 #151740 by Sevej
Pete, you name After the Horsemen and you don't know THW? Just don't think because you recently had a miniature gaming renaissance you know more than other people here.

If you think grid-movement is the only thing new here, you are sorely mistaken. Dust Tactics uses grid and I didn't think it was special either. But the combination of grid, free movement within grid and true LoS is what makes the recipe. On their own, these mechanisms are nothing usual, but together they are special.

Very few miniature games go into the realm of claustrophobic battlements. Because they know the rules can be difficult, and providing terrain for such game can be troublesome. Look at infinity. Everyone wants that cool city table. Very few will actually have it. And even Infinity has its quirks. I really don't like how models respond to individual activations and they always get a shot. Most tabletop miniatures are on pretty open table. Not many provide the challenge of room-to-room sweeping, which actually allows from pretty detailed movement within/between buildings. With rulers? I'll be damned if i have to measure every time I make that u-turn.

And what do i exactly overlook? Mind you I'm not backing this KS and will not likely do so. But I do admire the designer's approach on designing the game. On scope, it's very similar on what I'm developing. If it's about the targetting bases, it's one of daring decisions that the designer made, and actually simplifies a lot of things. Even Warmachine & Hordes use bases to project the imaginary cylinder required for line of sight. So it's really nothing new.

There are rules for suppression also, and you can actually target a space when you want to.

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08 May 2013 18:10 - 08 May 2013 18:12 #151758 by bomber
I dont really understand how these games get on apart from appealing to modellers and mini painters. Just download any random set of freeware miniature or skirmish rules, throw some pre painted minis down, like AT-43 and roll some fucking dice already. I mean its all the same shit, but one after another come rolling out like the next great thing. woopee doo, its minis and a map, and the same old rules one way or another, now you have another kickstarter package and you want hundreds of dollars for loads of retarded pledge levels. Are we so devoid of imagination that we cant bear to just you know, create some shit ourselves, we have to rely on someone to spoon feed us an entire package.

grrrrrrr
Last edit: 08 May 2013 18:12 by bomber.

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08 May 2013 20:51 #151776 by metalface13
You could probably say the same thing about any board game, get a board, some pawns and make up your own rules and give it a go.

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08 May 2013 21:04 - 08 May 2013 21:55 #151778 by SuperflyPete
Fuck. Brain fart. Two Hour Wargames. The acronym threw me. I most assuredly don't assume I know more than anyone at all - I know what I know, and I don't know what anyone else knows, so I simply assume you all know more than I do. I just talk and write about what I ~do~ know. ;)

I'd add that I've ~always~ played miniature wargames, since I was a kid. It's the one true love I never could quit. Like Leadback Mountain or something. And I've always "kept up" with the small press stuff, since that's the reason I really wanted to start the Circus...to help small press guys get some notice. But most of the BGG and F:AT crowd is more into board games, and I like board games quite a lot as well, obviously, so that's what I wrote about most because that's what readers wanted to read.

If you think grid-movement is the only thing new here, you are sorely mistaken. Dust Tactics uses grid and I didn't think it was special either. But the combination of grid, free movement within grid and true LoS is what makes the recipe. On their own, these mechanisms are nothing usual, but together they are special.


For what it's worth, Ex Illis has grid movement too, I was referring to the grid movement and free placement within the grid. I still think it's not all that shit hot, especially considering that facings don't matter.

Now about this whole idea that there's no 'room clearing' game out there, this has to be some sort of joke. SKANK is one of many games that has rules for indoor battles, for a contemporary one that gives rules for indoor explosions, buildings collapsing, buildings on fire, and whatnot.

Also, the idea that somehow most miniatures games are played on an open table is also kind of odd. If you're talking about Lord of the Rings or Epic or something, sure. But Mordheim is a great example of a game that's quite old and is all about close quarters and tight alleys.

Targeting spaces isn't new either. Skank gives rules for that, as well as a template, for instance. Same with Mutants and Death Rays, or for that matter, most games with indirect fire. I like suppression rules in military games as well.

I guess what this game is, in a nutshell, is a 150$ version of Skank or Combat Zone, or even Mercs to a degree, but with grid movement.

Like I said, I'm sure it's a darling game with nice little miniatures, it's just not something I'd pay for. I might buy the rulebook or sci fi terrain kits, but that's about as far as that goes.

http://www.skankgame.com/ztgame.html
SKANK


Combat Zone


Strange Aeons


Mordheim

One day I'll post some of my pics. Sadly I don't take many pictures of tables I've set up.
Last edit: 08 May 2013 21:55 by SuperflyPete.
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